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Doctor Who – 4x13 – Journey’s End (Grade/Discuss)

Grade Journey's End


  • Total voters
    239
Just a quick thought. Why didn't the Doctor give Rose the choice of returning to her own Universe? She may not really have wanted to spend the rest of her life in a parallel universe (she was trapped there against her will the first time). She would likely have friends and other relatives in her own reality. Mickey's allowed to come back, but the Doctor pushes Rose out to babysit his other self without giving her the option of coming home.

Isn't that a bit cruel?
 
Wasn't quite what I was expecting to be truthful, after what happened last week. It did get a tad silly at times, but the German Daleks made me chuckle and the ending with Wilf and the Doctor was nicely done (almost brought a lump to my throat in fact). Be interesting to see where Moffat takes it all from here.

GM
 
Hmm.. Fair point. But on the other hand, the Doctor is really uncomfortable with her, I can imagine. He obviously is not prepared to settle down with someone, and there's also that Bad Wolf thing she still has in her that he seems to be genuinely afraid of.

Besides, he had to get rid of his human twin. He can't kill him of course, so sealing him off and setting Rose to work on him was a perfect opportunity.
 
Hmm.. Fair point. But on the other hand, the Doctor is really uncomfortable with her, I can imagine. He obviously is not prepared to settle down with someone, and there's also that Bad Wolf thing she still has in her that he seems to be genuinely afraid of.

Besides, he had to get rid of his human twin. He can't kill him of course, so sealing him off and setting Rose to work on him was a perfect opportunity.

Plus there's the fact that Pete is still in the parallel world. You'd assume Jackie will stay with the mother of her child (Tony?! as in Blair?!) so Rose would naturally stay with her mum IF it meant she could have the Doctor. Mickey, OTOH, chose to stay because of his grandmother, who is apparently no longer around, and he can't have Rose because... well... he never really did, the poor bastard. He's matured into a hero in his own right and deserves someone - maybe if Martha's fiancee didn't survive the Dalek attack... or he could compete with Ianto! Depends how far he went to replace Rickey where Jake was concerned. ;)
 
The ENTIRE UNIVERSE and they throw a few switches, like in every other fucking RTD episode. RTD's utter lack of ingenuity or imagination popped out of the TV and gave us a nice mouth-fucking.

Yup, totally agreed. And I'm still giving it an excellent ;)
 
Good point Harry. I just think that it may have been better not to have Rose return (so avoid these awkward issues) or to make more of her return, so that the Doctor's sacrifice in giving her up (albeit to a clone of him) is better explained. I thought Tennant acted well with the pain in his eyes as he sees Rose go off with Doctor V2.0, but it did feel a bit rushed. Of course, I don't mean to overstate Rose's importance (companions come and go), but I just find it a bit creepy and insulting to her character that she'd be happy (more or less)with a Doctor copy. If a partner left you, would you be happy to date an indentical clone of them? I wouldn't.

I've enjoyed this series though and especially the German Daleks:)
 
Wow.

Just wow.

What an incredible disappointment.

The cliffhanger resolution was ...predictable, but I figured it wasn't even going to take thirty seconds to be sorted and that we'd still have the same Doctor by the end. But that's fine, I can live with that.

The rest was just a painful mish mash of let downs and cop outs. Gawd, the duplicate Doctor? What was RTD thinking? "Ah, here's a shitty genre cliche I haven't used yet! Paul, to the Tritemobile!"

The best, most exciting elements of this story - Davros, The Doctor himself, and the cut and thrust between the two were criminally underused and in the case of Davros - utterly wasted. Also, the Dalek "SUPER DUPER DESTRY-TEH-UNIVERSE-O-MATIC" device was such a ridiculously overblown piece of nonsense, faux "epic" arse-dribble of a perilous plot device that I found it simply incredible - literally, as in "without credibility".

And, when I thought they couldn't possibly outdo that bollocks for overblown nonsense, they go and "tow" the Earth back in place. What.

Just what. What?

What. Pah.

Rose's return to her universe was a desperate attempt to evoke memories of Doomsday but completely failed to capture that episode's sense of despair and longing. At the end of Doomsday I was reduced to (manly) tears. This scene reduced me to "meh".

Lastly, Donna should have died. Properly. None of this "mind wipe" tosh (he had to fit a reset button in somewhere didn't he?).

Frustratingly, everything else was absolute gold. Catherine Tate's performance in particular was absolutely brilliant. Her emotional pull, her resonance - her sheer versitality really shone through here. I honestly don't know how anyone can say she's a bad actress after this. The woman is phenomenal.

Series 4 has been bloody fantastic for the most part, and I'll certainly be buying the box set. But damn, that was a letdown. Midnight, Turn Left and Stolen Earth were beautiful examples of RTD at his best - an amazing writer when he wants to be. But Journey's End featured everything about his writing that I dislike - most notably his reliance on genre cliches, Voyager-esque technobabble resolutions to everything, and trying so very hard to be "epic" that he completely misses the mark.

Voted average in lieu of a "Frustratingly bad with some flashes of brilliance" option.


And before the usual suspects pounce on me with accusations of "RTD bashing" and "not being a true fan" - bite me. Kthxbai.
 
Matthunter: Good point. Its got me thinking though: Why not take all those trapped during the vents of 'Doomsday' back to their own reality. The human doctor could then be trapped by the Doctor on the parallel universe (I reckon a good scene of it could be made-like the Doctor killing off a part of himself). Of course, vengeful human doctor could then return in a later series:cool:

Pete would have to volunteer to swap realities of course :-)
 
Why would the TARDIS be designed to be driven by six people? It's designed specifically for one Time Lord.

Sorry, where has that ever been stated? There's nothing in the original series that addresses it. Yes, the novels state one Time Lord and one TARDIS are bonded together, but we're not counting the novels unless they make a decent episode, are we? In series, the whole "one pilot but you should have six" thing answers a lot of questions as to why the Doctor is such a crap pilot.

:lol:

Good point there! :techman:
 
But I can't decide wether the whole "EXTERMINIEREN!" scene was extremely insensitive or just very cool.
See, I had been all ready to say something along the lines of "fantastic, even if only for the German Daleks," as everyone else has already rightly said. One of the funniest moments in ages. My mum and I were both pissing ourselves laughing (while my dad hadn't even noticed).

But later, in the "test the bomb" scene, my mum pointed out the Dalek-Nazi parallel, especially as regards to herding people into a stone room where they're gassed and killed en masse. I pointed out that the Daleks had always had the element of a Nazi parallel, what with the whole "rule the world, kill anything that isn't like you" thing.

Daleks shrieking "Exterminieren!" isn't quite so funny anymore in that context.

Loved the brilliant twist involving Caan, brilliantly done. Then again, why bring back Davros at all to create a new Dalek race if he wanted the Daleks dead in the first place. I know that the things insane, but that's just stupid.

Davros needed Daleks to do his plan and Caan needed Davros to do his plan so The Doctor could wipe them out.
Oh, just say "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey" and be done with it.

I mean, The Daleks are pathetic now, even Davros, whom Julian Bleach gave a fantastic performance of, if needlessly taken down a peg (Oh, you spoke in relation to blah blah your not the leader....why the f**k not?) are just so easily disposed of, why do they even bother bringing them back with such fanfare?
Yeah, i thought he ended up being a bit wasted, honestly. At least we got a good old-fashion Davros Rant (tm) out of it, and those are always good value.

Also, the Dalek "SUPER DUPER DESTRY-TEH-UNIVERSE-O-MATIC" device was such a ridiculously overblown piece of nonsense, faux "epic" arse-dribble of a perilous plot device that I found it simply incredible - literally, as in "without credibility".
My general response to that whole thing was "Ummm...why? What does that gain you?"

That's the big hole in the Daleks' motivations - if you want to destroy all other life-forms to the extent that it's the only goal in your life, the only thing you think about, the only thing you live for, then what happens if/when you actually succeed in that goal? What do you do with your life then?

Also, all the companions in the Tardis was a very nice touch, although pulling the Earth seemed a bit...too much.
Fantastically and wonderfully over-the-top in a shameless way. Loved it.

Also, No campy Xmas Special lead in! Wahey! That "what? WHAT?!" device cheapened the last 2 season finale's, im SO happy they didnt cheapen it this time round.
Yeah, that if nothing else marked it as the End of an Era. Finally alone again, no sudden twist to rescue him.

Although I almost expected him to say "What? WHAT?" when the second Doctor came out of the Tardis. There, it would have been fitting.

Rose, supposedly gone for good. Maybe this time she will be, it'll be easier for Moffat to leave her than it was for RTD. I'm glad she gets the angry Doctor to temper and the infamous three word phrase wasn't uttered out loud. Good on you RTD.

Some important points there:
1 - it was only the Human Doctor who said it, so the traditionalists can still maintain the Real Doctor never said IT.
2 - it was whispered invisibly in her ear, so we never actually saw or heard the words, so the traditionalists can maintain that even the Human Doctor never said IT. For all we know, he could have been whispering "Wanna see why they call me David Ten-Inch?" Witness Rose's response.
3 - the whispered-in-the-ear device deliberately recalled River Song's whispering of his name. Did Human Doctor tell Rose his name? Does that qualify as a marriage proposal?

... and also the way they tied in Gwen with Gweneth from the Unquiet Dead, (which is something I asked about way back then when Torchwood started) ...
That was a nice throwaway. Just a quick, "Are you...?" "Oh yeah!"
 
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Unfortunately, I had to vote average after the first viewing. I may change my opinion on repeat viewings (wouldn't be the first time), but as it is... I didn't think this episode/season's resolution grew 'organically'. It seemed like there was one 'deus ex machina' after the other.

I never felt drawn into the narrative. I guess that's why I didn't like it. Doctor Who episodes usually are ridiculous, but this time I just couldn't suspend disbelief.
 
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Also, the Dalek "SUPER DUPER DESTRY-TEH-UNIVERSE-O-MATIC" device was such a ridiculously overblown piece of nonsense, faux "epic" arse-dribble of a perilous plot device that I found it simply incredible - literally, as in "without credibility".

Oh come on, it's no more ridiculous than "Project De-Gravitate" from "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" ! :lol:

Also, for those of you who are saying it was a Deus Ex Machina, well, it wasn't really because it wasn't a giant reset. Everyone who died in the previous episode is still dead. It'll be interesting to see how far the damage to Earth extends and if the human ideology will be changed in anyway (you'd think people would be fed up with being invaded every year).
 
Also, the Dalek "SUPER DUPER DESTRY-TEH-UNIVERSE-O-MATIC" device was such a ridiculously overblown piece of nonsense, faux "epic" arse-dribble of a perilous plot device that I found it simply incredible - literally, as in "without credibility".

Oh come on, it's no more ridiculous than "Project De-Gravitate" from "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" ! :lol:

And?

Also, for those of you who are saying it was a Deus Ex Machina, well, it wasn't

Agreed, but the term is so ridiculously and universally misused that it's pointless to rail against it.

really because it wasn't a giant reset.

Agreed again, but I must point out that a Deus ex Machina isn't necessarily a "reset" either.
 
but I must point out that a Deus ex Machina isn't necessarily a "reset" either.
I was just about to point that out.


As an example: For those who know the 'Night's Dawn' trilogy by Peter Hamilton:
It ended with a Deus ex Machina (a god-like being) and no reset either. The 'Naked God' could shape reality as it/Joshua saw fit and everything was fine accordingly.
To emphasize: It's not that I don't like resolutions to storylines such as this one (it's actually relatively typical Doctor Who-fare), I just didn't feel drawn into it this time.
 
MisterGaribaldi your new Avatar is pathetic, just because you don't like his work doesn't mean all his stuff is crap. He's done alot of good for Doctor Who and ifi t wasn't for him, the franchise would still be rotting in the vaults at BBC.
 
All in all, I have to say, it was fantastic.:D

I wasn't crazy about the transfer of the regeneration energy but, I can live with it.
I thought RTD did a nice job of wrapping up and tying together his run on the show. I can only imagine how long the scene where The Doctor remembered everyone who sacrificed themselves for him would have been if they went back to the Hartnell years.
They've pretty much made it so that we will never see Donna again. That's a shame. I've come to like her character quite a bit.
I rather enjoyed Tennant's pseudo impersonation of Donna.

From the Doctors reaction to finding that he's part human and the line about such a thing never happening before, I guess RTD has erased the half human thing that was put into the TV movie. Good. I never liked that.

Looks like Mickey & Martha will be joining Torchwood. That should be good.

I'm sure I have more to say but, I will let the episode sink in a bit more first.
 
I'm genuinely perplexed as to why so many would give that a "fantastic!" vote.

Seriously. Different strokes and all that, but how the hell can the top-votes be outnumbering the other choices so heavily? Methinks a lot of you will watch this in 6 months time and think "wait a minute - that wasn't as good as I remember". That's what happened to me with Last of the Time Lords.
 
MisterGaribaldi your new Avatar is pathetic

So is your ability to take a joke, or spot an obvious hyperbole.

just because you don't like his work doesn't mean all his stuff is crap

:rolleyes:

Me said:
Midnight, Turn Left and Stolen Earth were beautiful examples of RTD at his best - an amazing writer when he wants to be.

Jeez, I think he's a fantastically talented man. He does throw the odd clunker though, and this was one of them. Oh sorry, here's an "IMHO" disclaimer to make you feel better.

He's done alot of good for Doctor Who

Didn't say otherwise. In fact, I've said quite the opposite a billion times.

and ifi t wasn't for him, the franchise would still be rotting in the vaults at BBC

You're not a Time Lord, so I'd drop the pretense of being able to see the outcome of multiple timelines. Honestly, it's embarrassing.
 
Makes me wonder, has Doctor Who blown its load so to speak with the Daleks? Never mind in universe continuity, they seem to have done just about everything they could with them and the "temporal emergency shift" has been done to death.

I'm kind of hoping that they give them a bit of a rest. At least for the upcoming specials. Perhaps a return in 2010 or wait till the next true regeneration.



Just talking to my brother about the German daleks I said I would have liked to see a French one

If history is any sort of a guide, the Daleks in France needed only to speak German and the French would just lie down and let them roll right in. :D
 
Methinks a lot of you will watch this in 6 months time and think "wait a minute - that wasn't as good as I remember". That's what happened to me with Last of the Time Lords.

I fully admit that the story was ridiculous. And that fact did nothing to hamper my enjoyment of the episode and so I voted accordingly. This, and the previous episode, was just one great character moment after another... which is pretty much what you get for all the RTD episodes. Once Moffat fully takes over I certainly won't miss RTD'd nonsensical plotlines but I will miss how he handles all the characters. Because that is what he's brilliant at and that alone was enough to propel my enjoyment of this episode high enough to vote as I did.

If you can't get behind that, then sure, whatever. But I feel that this is what people are responding to. Certainly I am!
 
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