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Ceti Alpha 6 blown up..How?

JoeRalat

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Hey everyone, one question, about WOK.

How in real life can Ceti Alpha 6 blow up. Now some things we need to consider.

What type of planet was Ceti Alpha 6?

What real world events could blow it up?

Would the destruction of a world move a planet like Ceti Alpha 5 in a new orbit?

Could people live though an event like that?

Thanks
 
The Q were fooling around... playing galactic billard or something like that. :lol:

Or Ceti Alpha VI was either hit by a wandering mini-black hole or an anti-matter asteroid. ;)

To explain the sudden destruction of an entire planet you have to come up with some rather "speculative" ideas...
 
Section 31 sets seismic charges... (Blowing up the planet Khan's actually on would be too obvious for coincidence--but setting up a "natural" disaster on a neighboring world whose gravitational aftereffects just happen to wipe out the supermen? Perfect. In theory.)
 
Section 31 sets seismic charges... (Blowing up the planet Khan's actually on would be too obvious for coincidence--but setting up a "natural" disaster on a neighboring world whose gravitational aftereffects just happen to wipe out the supermen? Perfect. In theory.)

I agree with this idea...

Rob
Scorpio
 
According to the TWOK novelization, Ceta Alpha 6 was seismically unstable. The system hadn't been charted very well at the time of "Space Seed" or even been explored much by the time of TWOK. All that was mainly known and considered important was that CA5 was habitable to a degree. It was also claimed that CA6 was the moon of CA5, though the naming scheme doesn't make sense then, but I like that explanation better than it being a full sized planet. Such an explosion would have been a lot more devastating to Khan's group than what's described. This also explains why the Reliant didn't seem to notice its absence, but Chekov knew something was wrong when they entered the system.
 
Thing is, CA V & VI would have to be at least vaguely similar in terms of size an composition for the idea that one being mistaken for the other due to a shifted orbital path to work. So 6 being a moon is out.
I suppose the best people to ask would be JPL, but since they're not here I would propose that there are two main reasons a planet might explode without intervention.
First would be tidal forces, most likely between the local star and a gas giant that occasionally gets a little too close. Probably wouldn't look flashy, like in certain movies, more like a slow breakup. Of course when it happened the entire planet most have been very poorly held together, so unless the gravity change was drastic then it would be an unlikely scenario and certainly wouldn't generate the shockwave that Khan described.
The second and more likely cause would be from a massive impact from another planetary body or moon. If the impact happened from the "back" of the planet (from CA5's POV) and one didn't observe the other body getting closer before hand then it might appear as if CA6 just suddenly went boom. and if the orbital paths of the two planets happened to be close at that point then there would certainly be an alteration in CA5's orbit. Plus I imagine a significant meteor shower, which may have become seasonal as the planet would periodically catch up with the new asteroid field in it's altered orbit. Hence all the devastation and climate change.
 
Thing is, CA V & VI would have to be at least vaguely similar in terms of size an composition for the idea that one being mistaken for the other due to a shifted orbital path to work. So 6 being a moon is out.
I suppose the best people to ask would be JPL, but since they're not here I would propose that there are two main reasons a planet might explode without intervention.
First would be tidal forces, most likely between the local star and a gas giant that occasionally gets a little too close. Probably wouldn't look flashy, like in certain movies, more like a slow breakup. Of course when it happened the entire planet most have been very poorly held together, so unless the gravity change was drastic then it would be an unlikely scenario and certainly wouldn't generate the shockwave that Khan described.
The second and more likely cause would be from a massive impact from another planetary body or moon. If the impact happened from the "back" of the planet (from CA5's POV) and one didn't observe the other body getting closer before hand then it might appear as if CA6 just suddenly went boom. and if the orbital paths of the two planets happened to be close at that point then there would certainly be an alteration in CA5's orbit. Plus I imagine a significant meteor shower, which may have become seasonal as the planet would periodically catch up with the new asteroid field in it's altered orbit. Hence all the devastation and climate change.

Ummm..maybe. But it would also have to depend on where the planet was in relative position to where V was when it happened. There would have been a ton of debris left orbiting that sun,and to have crossed, to get to V.

I think its more likely that SECTION 31 did it and changed the data in the starfleet records. There is absolutely no way for that ship to think it was on Ceti Alpha 6 when it was really on 5...the data was changed IMO

Rob
Scorpio
 
Without a lot of technical details at hand, I do not buy the distruption by tidal stress. It would affect the orbits as well as the tidal forces.
I would prefer some highly improbable explanation, such as a collision with a similar mass object, disruption by an appropriate size black hole. Maybe someone really wants to make the case that a Q did it to Kirk, knowing what would ensue.
 
You can come up with all sorts of ideas.

Actually I doubt that Section 31 or anyone would set seismic charges or something like that.

Just take a small ship, lock its controls and engines, set in on a collision course with the planet and program it to accelerate up to near the speed of light.

A small ship of a few hundred tons hitting a planet at 90% of the speed of light would be like several thousand multi megaton nuclear weapons going off without the radiation.

Why would Starfleet do this?

To me, it is pretty obvious that Captain Kirk let his admiration for Khan get in the way and vastly exceeded his authority in marooning them on the star system.

Given the incredible sensitivity we've seen the Federation and Earth show regarding genetic engineering (they sent Bashir's dad to prison when all he wanted was for his son to be successful) it seems pretty clear that Starfleet would prefer that Khan and his group go back to being "disappeared".
 
As they say, the simplest explanation is usually the most elegant. I don't think Section 31 had anything to do with it. I'd take Khan at his word, that Ceti Alpha VI, either another close planet or a moon of Ceti Alpha V -- and moon in the broader sense that it might have been barely habitable, not an airless rock, and part of a double planet system -- did indeed blow up naturally. The explosion managed to shift the orbit and drastically change the climate as the planet's debris caused a "nuclear" winter. As to why, perhaps Ceti Alpha VI was geologically unstable, due to its core being too hot or because of runaway seismic activity. I don't think we need to come up with convoluted explanations to arrive at a satisfactory reason why it exploded. -- RR
 
I tend to think of a planet's explosion being caused by outside means.

Because in the normal course of events planets simply do not blow up or disintergrate.
 
Because in the normal course of events planets simply do not blow up or disintergrate.

We've no way of knowing this. Considering out of a galaxy of millions upon millions upon billions planets the only ones we've any remote practical experience with numbers at 8 or 9 (depending on how you want to count them. ;)) For all we know planets NOT randomly blowing up for no real good or apparent reason could be rareity.
 
Because in the normal course of events planets simply do not blow up or disintergrate.

We've no way of knowing this. Considering out of a galaxy of millions upon millions upon billions planets the only ones we've any remote practical experience with numbers at 8 or 9 (depending on how you want to count them. ;)) For all we know planets NOT randomly blowing up for no real good or apparent reason could be rareity.

The laws of physics that govern what makes a planet a planet are not likely to change so radically in the future.

The number of planetary examples we have to that is irrelevant.
 
To be sure, we have only the vaguest idea of how the laws of physics govern what happens in faraway solar systems. Most of our original assumptions, reasonable at the time, have been proven false when we have been able to actually observe solar systems other than our own. Some have been blown out of the water by more detailed study of our own system, too - say, the concept that the Sol system would have to be classically stable simply because it has remained in existence for a few billion years. Between Newton's stability and Velikovsky or Molchanov's random chaos, it seems that current science agrees that at least the inner Sol system is unstable enough to allow for Mercury to start careening wildly out of orbit any minute now.

Whether that could happen at Ceti Alpha is impossible to tell even if we knew the exact orbits, masses and so forth of the planets there - an at least seven-body problem should already be chaotic enough to allow for basically anything to transpire.

Moreover, Khan would have had an even vaguer idea of what was going on. His instrumentation would be lacking, as no doubt would his knowledge on astronomy. He said CA6 "exploded", but for all we know, he just saw it there one night and didn't see it any more the next night, and blamed the later climate changes on that disappearance while inventing all sorts of additional details to complete the theory.

We don't really have to assume all that big a cataclysm in order to explain the data: the slightest shift in CA5's orbit or orientation could explain the climate change, and indeed a major shift would probably have terminated the Class M environment and the penal settlement there at once.

The issue of how the Reliant came to mistake CA5 for CA6 is actually quite separate from what really happened in the system. We have every reason to assume that the CA system was poorly charted to begin with, hence ideal for marooning a few dozen supermen. We have little reason to assume that the Reliant would have had available means for identification more refined than just flying in, counting how many planets there were, and assigning ordinals per distance from the star, then comparing those ordinals with whatever was in the databases.

And we know that what was in the databases was vague to begin with. The Reliant crew probably knew there would be a desertlike Class M planet there, or else they wouldn't have come looking for one (unless they were doing a random search within a specific area). But they didn't know any details of that planet, because they did have to come there and have a look before they could decide whether it would fit the Genesis test parameters. It wouldn't have occurred to them to painstakingly study the orbits of the planets before homing in on the obvious desert world and identifying it as CA6. And that wasn't their job, either.

So perhaps CA6 exploded, perhaps it didn't. Perhaps its demise affected CA5 orbit and climate, perhaps something else did. I'm rather inclined to think that CA6 fell victim to something "unnatural" yet fairly mundane in the Trek universe, such as the impact of a giant derelict starship or an out-of-control doomsday weapon, the final shutdown of a divine machine that held the planet together, or a misfire of the Caretaker's interstellar abduction beam. But I think it would be quite reasonable to accept the possibility of a random instability within the known laws of nature, too.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I agree that the Doomsday Planet Killer might have been rambling through the Ceti Alpha system before it encountered the Constellation and Enterprise. We know its planet killing beam breaks up planets to ingest their smaller junks. Perhaps it was in the process of eating the planets in the CA system when it determined it had to leave the system before munching on CA5?

Timeframe actually matches up. Khan said that CA6 exploded six months after they were dropped off on CA5. Space Seed happened on stardate 3141.9 (Late Season 1 episode #24 aired on February 16, 1967). Doomsday Machine happened on stardate 4202.9 (Early Season 2 episode #35 aired on October 20, 1967). I don't know how stardates were calculated exactly (does anyone really?), but those two episodes could be said to have taken place around 8 months apart. The Ceti Alpha incident could easily fall within that time, close to when the Doomsday Machine started moving in towards the core Federation worlds.
 
Generally, I'd like to assume that a thousand stardates make a year, even in TOS, but arguments have been made in favor of other ratios as well.

But even if the destruction of CA6 happened six months before "Doomsday Machine", this is no reason to assume the DDM wasn't responsible. After all, as pointed out, one would only observe the DDM's handiwork if stumbling onto a destroyed system - and just because Matt Decker did so on 4202 is no proof that the machine wasn't active half a year prior.

Certainly we shouldn't count Ceti Alpha as a Federation core world even if we assume it lies close to the place where Khan was discovered (and hence within Botany Bay range of Earth). The playground in "DDM" could lie closer to Earth - or then farther out, but still located so that the DDM would be heading for dense habitation at Rigel, even though thankfully ignoring Earth for a change.

Timo Saloniemi
 
\I would think Kirk left Khan in an obscure system to increase the chances that Khan would not be discovered by another starship.
 
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