Red Squad and the Valiant

[Sean Aaron]

That plastic surgery site seems more than a little off the mark. The nose job doesn't appear to have happened; just looks like different lighting to me -- especially given the fuzzy nature of the oldest photos they're comparing; the boob job is possible, but the analysis is off. Newer photo is closer to the subject and at a different angle.

I've got no personal investment (I cannot even recall her in the episode, just Watters and the girl from Luna stick out in my mind), but these celebrity dissection things get a bit out of hand...

 

[scorpius1701]

Wow. So he took an outdated concept by 21st century standards and used as the basis for a 24th century story.

I don't think that's too much of a problem. Heck, we have 24th century commanders playing bland "jazz"!

Using outdated concepts and giving them twists in Sci-Fi is a standard, I think. Roger Ebert pointed out that, for all the advanced technology we see in the Star Wars movies, modern day Air Force fighters seem to be a step above X-Wings, and that the Millennium Falcon acts more like a World War II era bomber with its turrets.

Theres a big difference between giving the audience something to relate to and using outmoded concepts that barely pass a credibility test as the basis for your episode.

 

[Navaros]

IMO that Moore explanation makes no sense and is a total cop-out to try to cover the fact that the episode was fubared in regards to ignoring Nog's rank problem.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

^True that. Nog even refers to the LTJG pips as LTCMDR.

 

[Timo]

Theres a big difference between giving the audience something to relate to and using outmoded concepts that barely pass a credibility test as the basis for your episode.

However, there's ample Trek precedent that the skipper can place any qualified person in command, after which people of higher rank cannot dislodge that person no matter what. "Arsenal of Freedom" or "The Pegasus" come to mind first. In that sense, it wouldn't have mattered if Nog were a Lieutenant Commander - except in the sense that he would then have had enough experience to circumvent the problem somehow and assume control of the situation regardless.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[scorpius1701]

Theres a big difference between giving the audience something to relate to and using outmoded concepts that barely pass a credibility test as the basis for your episode.

However, there's ample Trek precedent that the skipper can place any qualified person in command, after which people of higher rank cannot dislodge that person no matter what. "Arsenal of Freedom" or "The Pegasus" come to mind first. In that sense, it wouldn't have mattered if Nog were a Lieutenant Commander - except in the sense that he would then have had enough experience to circumvent the problem somehow and assume control of the situation regardless.

Timo Saloniemi

I count only Arsenel of Freedom. In the Pegasus theres dialogue where Picard acknowledges that as the higher ranked officer, the Admiral can take command. Later he tries to but is relieved when its revealed whats going on. I count episodes like The Deadly Years, Doomsday Machine, TWOK, as being clear cut indications that a higher ranked officer takes commmand. I simply refuse to believe that Starfleet is so STUPID as to allow such flexibility in regulations as to allow the Valiant situation to take place.

 

[DanCPA]

I simply refuse to believe that Starfleet is so STUPID as to allow such flexibility in regulations as to allow the Valiant situation to take place.

Stupid in that sense? There is a clear chain of command. The command staff was removed and there were only cadets left aboard... We should keep in mind that realistically, with a crew of 50 or so, there would only be a handful of officers aboard. So, assuming Watters is telling the truth, you have a Cadet, who is within the chain of command, getting orders to take command of the ship. We don't know anything beyond that... We know that Watters had been making good decisions (his crew was alive and well BEHIND enemy lines) until he decided to go for immortality. It was the job of the Exec OR the Medical officer to relieve him of his command if they thought he was acting recklessly.

 

[scorpius1701]

I simply refuse to believe that Starfleet is so STUPID as to allow such flexibility in regulations as to allow the Valiant situation to take place.

Stupid in that sense? There is a clear chain of command. The command staff was removed and there were only cadets left aboard... We should keep in mind that realistically, with a crew of 50 or so, there would only be a handful of officers aboard. So, assuming Watters is telling the truth, you have a Cadet, who is within the chain of command, getting orders to take command of the ship. We don't know anything beyond that... We know that Watters had been making good decisions (his crew was alive and well BEHIND enemy lines) until he decided to go for immortality. It was the job of the Exec OR the Medical officer to relieve him of his command if they thought he was acting recklessly.

Yeah any chain of command that makes an ounce of sense is when you have CADETS alone on a ship, when a real officer comes aboard, he (or she) takes over.

 

[RaymondJames]

i never liked this valiant-Nog mumbo jumbo, it never made sense. Clearly Nog out ranks them and regardless if the CO gave command to this Cadet, the CO is dead. For all we know The Cadet lied and just took command and decided to go all rouge ass and continue "the mssion". hell maybe the cadet killed the Co and the rest of the comissioned officers.

 

[JM1776]

It's possible that Ramirez was a fleet captain, commodore or even rear admiral, addressed as "Captain" first while in command of Valiant, and then fondly in memoriam by Watters. An officer of flag rank does have the authority to make a captain ... and said commission is valid at least until reviewed and either confirmed or (as it would be in this case) overturned by upper echelons.

Admirals do occasionally end up aboard a shipful of cadets during an emergency situation (cf. Star Trek II).

Nog ... could still smell (or hear, given his species) the proverbial rat and demand that Watters provide some sort of proof on those orders. In lieu of such proof, he could proceed to strip Watters of his undeserved status, countermand all of Watters' previous orders and command the ship back to Federation space.

Quite right. In addition, if Ramirez had been only a captain in rank, his elevation of Watters to the command position would simply have meant "captain" in the billet sense, vis-a-vis grade, since a captain cannot commission another as a captain. If that were the case, Nog could simply have relieved Watters, because the presence of a commissioned officer, even one so low-ranked as ensign, would have overriden a simple nomination to command, though not a genuine elevation to captain made by someone with such authority.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

I was just reminded of O'Brian explaining the tradition of calling the commander captain regardless of rank, and Nog being amazed that if he took comand he'd be called captan ...."...by the time you took command...there'd be nobody left to call you anything"

 

[DanCPA]

Yeah any chain of command that makes an ounce of sense is when you have CADETS alone on a ship, when a real officer comes aboard, he (or she) takes over.

Command is command, and an assignment is an assignment. On the Federation's flag ship, we see a kid get a blue jump suit and because the Captain decides it so, makes him an "Acting Ensign." Eventually, he stops wearing the blue suit, but he is still an "Acting Ensign," but you better believe that he has authority to order around all the Non-Com's and crew. And this was a kid that didn't even qualify for the academy!

 

[JM1776]

It's also possible the dying Ramirez whispered to Watters, "You're ... captain now," meaning billet and/or position, but the starry-eyed and ambitious kid heard what he wanted Ramirez to mean, which was, "I've made you a captain."

I also think Nog's hero worship of Red Squad prevented him from doing his duty properly.

"Might I see the ship's log, sir? You do have verifiable confirmation of your commission, I assume?"

If Watters cannot produce it, then Nog announces that, as the only commissioned officer aboard, he's taking command of the Valiant.

If, instead, Watters says, "Well, I can't, because it was whispered to me with his dying breath; only I heard it," well ... it becomes a much stickier widget, and Nog would be well advised to accept Watters' command, because no one aboard that ship's gonna assume their leader is lying.

 

[Triskelion]

I don't know that the chain of command would have held up considering the circumstances. I also believe that Starfleet regs would have been put into place to make very clear contingency orders, such as: in the event of death of the command staff, all standing orders are rescinded and the cadets are to return to the nearest starbase immediately. (But then, no story). The original mission was to circumnavigate the Federation (in a Defiant-class ship? Not bloody likely!). Not engage the enemy's super secret flagship with a bunch of snots.

Boy those cadets were really smarmy.

Perhaps Starfleet at some point should teach cadets how to complete missions rather than show off. Still, I really believe that there would be unrest on the ship, and not blind obedience, in light of the extenuating circumstances. You'd have cadets obeying out of fear rather than pride.

 

[Candlelight]

All I know is the "Captain" got that sexy first officer killed.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

All I know is the "Captain" got that sexy first officer killed.

The captain was sexy too

 

[JM1776]

I don't know that the chain of command would have held up considering the circumstances.

Actually, I don't see how it couldn't have, considering Red Squad's collective ego.

I also believe that Starfleet regs would have been put into place to make very clear contingency orders, such as: in the event of death of the command staff, all standing orders are rescinded and the cadets are to return to the nearest starbase immediately.

That certainly would have made sense, but ... such orders may never have been necessary before, because the old Republic never used to leave the vicinity of Earth.

In addition, Watters would never have heeded them. Instead, he'd declare "captain's discretion" or some other BS.

Still, I really believe that there would be unrest on the ship ...

Not much, from what we saw of Red Squad, the personification of youthful hubris.

I believe insufferable little brats convinced of their adulthood and invincibility would act precisely as they did.

 

[Red Ranger]

People,

Valiant is one of the few DSN eps I had never seen up until last night. So it's quite fresh in my mind.

I happen to agree with most of you that Waters' authority is rather suspect and that Nog, who actually has a commission, would have been well in his rights to assume command. I do recall that in TNG ep The Arsenal of Freedom, it is established that while Geordi was a grade lower than Chief Engineer Logan, that he would only relinquish command to the captain or first officer.

However, you should all look at the context of the ep. Nog worshipped Red Squad, and the other cadets worshipped their leader, following him blindly. The ep reminds me of the movie Taps, with Timothy Hutton and George C. Scott, and the book Lord of the Flies, in that young, undisciplined people might have great enthusiasm but make big mistakes and can rapidly descend into blind obedience, particularly in times of war.

Red Ranger

 

[scorpius1701]

People,

Valiant is one of the few DSN eps I had never seen up until last night. So it's quite fresh in my mind.

I happen to agree with most of you that Waters' authority is rather suspect and that Nog, who actually has a commission, would have been well in his rights to assume command. I do recall that in TNG ep The Arsenal of Freedom, it is established that while Geordi was a grade lower than Chief Engineer Logan, that he would only relinquish command to the captain or first officer.

However, you should all look at the context of the ep. Nog worshipped Red Squad, and the other cadets worshipped their leader, following him blindly. The ep reminds me of the movie Taps, with Timothy Hutton and George C. Scott, and the book Lord of the Flies, in that young, undisciplined people might have great enthusiasm but make big mistakes and can rapidly descend into blind obedience, particularly in times of war.

Red Ranger

Yeah but the problem is that it doesnt seem that the audience could really understand Nog's position because the Red Squaders were being BLATANTLY stupid and not very well portrayed so the episode suffered primarily because of that. Remember that we havent seen Red Squad. All we really knew about them was that they got good grades and tried to trick Earth into thinking the Dominion were coming. The main question (at least on my mind) was more along the lines of "Nog is such an idiot for going along with this, why doesnt he do something?" as opposed to "Wow, this is going to be heartbreaking for Nog when everyone dies." which is i guess what they were going for. The execution of the episode was pretty off IMHO.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Maybe the writers figured Nog would be worried that if he opposed the attack on the warship, and it worked, hed have lost his chances of being one of the Red Squad boys forever when he got back.