Red Squad and the Valiant

[DanCPA]

First, I never got the impression that Wes' promotion included the ability to boss people around....Nog should have assumed command and ordered the Valiant back.

Well, Wes did have the authority to order NCOs aboard the Enterprise... Mostly we see Officers on the Enterprise, and Wes wouldn't be able to order them around. We do see Acting Ensign Crusher order around his science team when they are assigned under him in the chain of command.

And the chain of command is where this leads... ASSUMING Watters had legit command of the Valiant, his authority came from a CAPTAIN. Where would Nog's authority to take command come from? IRL, if a Colonel gave an order to a 1st LT to assume command of a special ops squad as he was incapacitated, a Major could not show up and take the command from him without authority that is from within his chain of command OR superior to the Colonel. In the modern military, when an officer is given command, he is given command on the authority of the Flag officer that assigns him command and can not be relieved by someone that does not carry sufficient authorization to do so. So, Ensign Nog could have Watters salute, but he did not have the authority to assume command... And I doubt that Starfleet would allow an officer as low ranking as an Ensign general command abilities.

 

[scorpius1701]

Weve seen over and over again in Star Trek that the highest ranked officer on board a ship assumes command when in a tactical situation. Stiles took command of Enterprise in the Deadly Years, Decker took command in Doomsday Machine, that admiral guy took command in Pegasus, etc. Nog is the highest ranked regular officer because he has a real commission. As to the point about Nog not being allowed to command as an ensign, i would say that Watters is lower ranked as a cadet. Weve also been told by O'Brien that if a ranked officer dies, all the way to Nog, then Nog would take command of the ship, though hed be the last one alive. Admittedly, this is a sticky issue as i think someone brought up Gerodi back in the Arsenal of Freedom but there is just no way that a freakin CADET can succsesfully argue to be left in command of a WARSHIP while in the presence of an actual officer.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

But isn't that a typical problem that Trek has had? Breaking the chain of command for a plot device? I thought in reality the skipper is the skipper. Doesn't even have to have the rank of captain to be the commanding officer. But in this case yes, a cadet would simply have no authority to order a commissioned officer around. Problem is, soon as Nog tried to take command, into the brig he'd go. That's how the little problem with Jake was "resolved."

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Weve also been told by O'Brien that if a ranked officer dies, all the way to Nog, then Nog would take command of the ship, though hed be the last one alive.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. In one episode O'Brien says the above. In Rules of Engagement O'Brien (or the Klingon advocate) says that if Worf hadn't been there then O'Brien would have been in command of the Defiant. Makes perfect sense as O'Brien had more starship comabt experience than Worf at that point, but O'Brien never took command of the Defiant as far as I can recall.

Just another example of changing up the chain of command to suit the plot.

 

[starburst]

Weve also been told by O'Brien that if a ranked officer dies, all the way to Nog, then Nog would take command of the ship, though hed be the last one alive.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. In one episode O'Brien says the above. In Rules of Engagement O'Brien (or the Klingon advocate) says that if Worf hadn't been there then O'Brien would have been in command of the Defiant. Makes perfect sense as O'Brien had more starship comabt experience than Worf at that point, but O'Brien never took command of the Defiant as far as I can recall.

Just another example of changing up the chain of command to suit the plot.

O'Brien being the next in line to Command would have been because he was the next senior officer on the ship, yes there could be a few low ranking Ensigns or Lieutenants but he was the ships Chief Engineer and so next in the chain.

 

[Timo]

Actually, O'Brien never said he would be next in line after Worf bought it. In "Rules of Engagement", the Klingon prosecutor presses O'Brien to speculate on what would happen if O'Brien were in command. O'Brien rightfully argues that he wasn't, and in most circumstances wouldn't be, so the question isn't relevant. But the Klingon prosecutor insists. The following bit of dialogue comes after long pestering by the prosecution:

Prosecutor Ch'Pok: "Chief O'Brien, if Mister Worf hadbeen injured, could you have taken command of that ship?"
O'Brien: "I would've."

It's a completely hypothetical situation that establishes nothing about the chain of command aboard the vessel. O'Brien could keep on arguing that if Worf were incapacitated, there would be sixteen people ahead of him to take command - but that's not what the prosecution was asking about. Ch'Pok asked whether O'Brien "could" have entered this hypothetical situation, and O'Brien admits that the theoretical possibility exists.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanCPA]

Actually, by Obrien saying that he would have taken command, I think it further reinforces the idea that he was next in the chain of command, despite rank. We also see Chief O'Brien as the department head ordering Ensign Nog around. Which goes back to the Watters situation, his authority came from the ships commissioned Captain... O'Brien's authority comes from his station's commissioned Commander/Captain. And Nog does not have the authority to override the orders of Captain Ramirez. In the cases you mentioned, scorpious1701, you have a full flag officer assuming command, which since they are in the chain of command, they could.
We should see the case of Bashir and O'Brien trapped on the planet with the JemHadar... without orders from a superior officer, Bashir takes command of the situation because he is the senior officer... Same situation when Troi takes command of the Enterprise. But Watters had orders, and unless they came with a "turn command over to the first officer you find," it was his ship.

 

[Timo]

Actually, by Obrien saying that he would have taken command, I think it further reinforces the idea that he was next in the chain of command, despite rank.

But why should he be that, with other commissioned officers in all likelihood aboard in some quantity?

Come to think of it, why should he be at the conn of the Defiant? It's not something he'd do on any other occasion. And while he's apparently competent enough (he did some conning back on the E-D, too, when the ship did not yet have a full crew), he would be sorely needed back at Engineering where he probably is responsible for the modifications that turned this lemon of a ship into a working fighting machine.

I could excuse him taking temporary helm duties, but the case for him taking command is purely theoretical, and only applicable in a courtroom scenario, not out there on an operational sortie.

And Nog does not have the authority to override the orders of Captain Ramirez.

He could still smell (or hear, given his species) the proverbial rat and demand that Watters provide some sort of proof on those orders. In lieu of such proof, he could proceed to strip Watters of his undeserved status, countermand all of Watters' previous orders and command the ship back to Federation space. It's more an issue of him not wanting that or being up to that than of him not being formally capable of that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanCPA]

But why should he be that, with other commissioned officers in all likelihood aboard in some quantity?

For the same reason he is the chief of operations over the same officers... The CO gets to select the chain of command and what officers get what responsibilities. If Ben or Worf give him the XO position, he is the second most senior officer on that ship, regardless of his actual rank.

 

[Timo]

Sure. But they never do that in any other episode (as O'Brien is more valuable to them back at Engineering), so I don't think they should be interpreted as doing it in this case, either. Certainly not when we see that Major Kira was also aboard!

Prosecutor Ch'Pok was pressing for a purely hypothetical case, and that's what he got. The scene with O'Brien on the center seat was a pure fantasy sequence, while the other pseudo-flashbacks at least featured a kernel of reality.

As for whether it's realistic for Sisko to treat Kira as the XO or 2nd Officer of the ship, that's another discussion. It's a good political move, but probably Starfleet wouldn't approve much...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Blueicus]

I still think that if Nog tried to assert any real authority the crew would then laugh at him and toss him in the brig. By that time their heads were too far up their arses to realize what they were doing.

 

[Gojirob]

This is the sheerest speculation, but I wonder if the rest of the cadet crew maybe knew about Watters' stimulants, and had begun to follow suit. Not that ego isn't enough of a narcotic.

Nog, whether he meant to or not, saved their lives by throwing in as he did. He showed why he was mustered fwd when others weren't, connections aside.

 

[Immolatus]

In modern naval protocol, Nog, a commissioned officer, would have immediately outranked the entire crew of the Valiant, all of whom were cadets. However, writer Ronald D. Moore has stated that he based the premise on an 18th and 19th century naval tradition that an acting captain can only be removed from command by a flag officer. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Valiant_%28episode%29

Q: In "Valiant" Shouldn't the actually commissioned Ensign Nog have immediately outranked every single one of the cadets, acting captain or not, the minute he set foot on the ship?
A: That's the way it would've worked in the USN. I decided to go with a somwhat older idea that a lawfully designated commanding officer cannot be removed from command except by someone of flag rank. (I'm over-simplifying this idea, but this is roughly the way that things worked in the 18th-19th century Royal Navy.) Captain Watters was given a valid commission and had held his command for eight months. It didn't seem like I was stretching things too far to allow him to continue in that role when Nog arrived -- and remember that Nog was also commissioned as a young cadet who hadn't even been at the Academy for as long as Watters.

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm980604.htm


some info i found

 

[DanCPA]

Thanks!

 

[smeos]

About Watters "stealing" command after the Captain's death. Wouldn't Ramirez have to transfer all of his command codes to Watters before he died? That would seem to make the promotion legitimate.

Unless the computer automatically deemed him the next highest ranking officer after all the regular ones were killed.

 

[DanCPA]

About Watters "stealing" command after the Captain's death. Wouldn't Ramirez have to transfer all of his command codes to Watters before he died? That would seem to make the promotion legitimate.

You are assuming that he used the command codes. It's been a while since I saw this ep, but I don't remember Watters using command codes... likely he didn't have them

Unless the computer automatically deemed him the next highest ranking officer after all the regular ones were killed.

There is no reason to believe that he would be the "senior" cadet over the other 4th year students, so I doubt the computer could make that decision on its own

 

[scorpius1701]

In modern naval protocol, Nog, a commissioned officer, would have immediately outranked the entire crew of the Valiant, all of whom were cadets. However, writer Ronald D. Moore has stated that he based the premise on an 18th and 19th century naval tradition that an acting captain can only be removed from command by a flag officer. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Valiant_(episode)

Q: In "Valiant" Shouldn't the actually commissioned Ensign Nog have immediately outranked every single one of the cadets, acting captain or not, the minute he set foot on the ship?
A: That's the way it would've worked in the USN. I decided to go with a somwhat older idea that a lawfully designated commanding officer cannot be removed from command except by someone of flag rank. (I'm over-simplifying this idea, but this is roughly the way that things worked in the 18th-19th century Royal Navy.) Captain Watters was given a valid commission and had held his command for eight months. It didn't seem like I was stretching things too far to allow him to continue in that role when Nog arrived -- and remember that Nog was also commissioned as a young cadet who hadn't even been at the Academy for as long as Watters.

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm980604.htm


some info i found

Wow. So he took an outdated concept by 21st century standards and used as the basis for a 24th century story.

 

[Cyke101]

Wow. So he took an outdated concept by 21st century standards and used as the basis for a 24th century story.

I don't think that's too much of a problem. Heck, we have 24th century commanders playing bland "jazz"!

Using outdated concepts and giving them twists in Sci-Fi is a standard, I think. Roger Ebert pointed out that, for all the advanced technology we see in the Star Wars movies, modern day Air Force fighters seem to be a step above X-Wings, and that the Millennium Falcon acts more like a World War II era bomber with its turrets.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

And those cadet actors were really really awful.

Especially, Courtney Peldon.
At least, she was actually wearing clothes in this episode. Unlike real life.

You wouldn't recognize her now!

 

[DanCPA]

Poor Courtney

And I like that Nog didn't outrank the cadets! Kudos to Ron Moore!