One episode is hardly conclusive. Especially from way back in TOS, where a lot of the backstories were wildly inconsistent and had not yet been nailed down.
Except for the annoying fact that TOS in this matter is extremely consistent: with reality.
No they did not!
If I am wrong, feel free to post part of the transcript where there was no Federation President at the time of Journey to Babel.
You mean 3 entire quarters of the episode, the whole ffing reason the summit was called? You know, the part where Sarek wants to let the planet join the Federation partially if not entirely because he wants Starfleet to be able to protect the planet from the Tellarites, a Federation member? Essentially being able to put up several war vessels to fight continued attempts by the Tellarite to exploit them? Showing the Federation can't order the Tellarites to stop abusing another member, but the only way to protect a member from a fellow member, is to fight a border skirmish with them?
That part? You know the reason why the Enterprise was attacked?
You know, the entire ffing episode?
Oh, yes it did. It started as a military alliance during and after the Earth-Romulan War.
No the Coalition of Planets was the precursor of the United Federation of Planets.
During the Earth/Romulan war, what allies helped Earth during the war? The Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites of which were of the Coalition of Planets with Earth.
If you feel I am wrong, feel free to prove it!
I don't need to prove a damn thing. The Coalition is from Enterprise. Enterprise is trash, we throw it on the trash heap.
No kidding... Hence why there not like the EU & the UN which you compaired as being alike.
I said - LATER. The Earlier Federation would indeed not be able to declare war in the traditional sense, but like the UN, they could make the decision that (all) members could go to war over something being bad enough.
What are you talking about? Nobody stated that any Federation ambassadors, representatives or what ever else is a permanent position. Just like ambassadors, congressmen, repersentative from our own goverment here in the US, there not permanent postion.
:sighs:
Please learn how to read.
I never said a damn thing about positions being permanent, I said the institution is consistent and permanent (in operation). If the Council that Ambassadors needed to go to was like US court, they never need to go their, because they would BE their, for the entire time of their term.
Also no kidding that the Ambassadors from Babel were representing the Federation which is there government, i.e. there home world!
Nope, the Federation being a union of worlds is not a home world. Nor you can you represent something to itself.
And if you'd bother to use your brain, or learn how to read, you would understand this.
Sarek, did represent Vulcan - he's ambassador, he's not chose by its people. He represents Vulcan's government, he is their ambassador. If he represented Vulcan, he would have been chosen by its people, not appointed by its government, and as a result not carry the title ambassador.
Yes the Federation does have a permanent branch, its called the Federation Council!!! Its like Congress which is a permanent legislative branch within or own government, the congress men or women are voted there to serve a certain term, just like a council man or an ambassador serving under what ever branch in the Federation.
Nope, in TOS it did NOT have that branch. All those belonging on that council and doing the talking and voting, needed to GO there. That means, like I already said, but you don't seem to be able to read, so I'll repeat it again: it's like the UN. They are apart, away from each other, they simply are insubstantial, and only when something significant occurs, do they set up a meeting and a place to meet, give notice, and then those people, ambassadors, come and do their thing.
They are NOT like the US congress, in that they are voted in place, then move to go live in the city near the permanent building, and essentially work in/on this congress seven days a week.
Nothing of this sort is happening.
The EU & the UN have no power over any government or sovereign nation, they have no military nor can they declare war. Thats clearly not even close to being like the Federation.
Neither did the Federation. The Federation could not tell the Tellarites to stop exploiting the people of the planet that was vying for membership. The Tellarites could do whatever the hell they wanted to. The only thing the Federation could do, is approve of the the membership, and only once they were a member could they send in Starfleet to guard the planet from Tellarite exploitation - one of the Federation members. So even then, the Federation couldn't stop the Tellarites from attempting to continue their exploitation, except by stationing a permanent Starfleet guard that would protect the planet. Essentially the Federation waging a war against its own members merchants to stop it from illegally and immorally exploiting one of its fellow Federation members.
If the Federation had power over the member governments, all they had to do was order the Tellarites to stop, but they couldn't.
No, it doesn't jive with what TOS showed us of the Federation at that time.
My opinion is that TOS showed a realistic growth of the Federation, and not a magical "poof, suddenly we are here, completely as is" some other series want to show, and that the earlier is (obviously) a much better model. (Not to mention that it opens up many more story telling opportunities than if it just poof came into existence.)
The EU is Europeans, practically siblings - to the point that the only reason that there is a France, Spain, Germany and other countries today is that the three sons of Charles the Great who ruled over the three territories under their father, wouldn't accept any of the other brothers above them and so it splintered apart - and the EU only forms step by little step.
Do you really think, that completely different species, some who have been antagonists for decades if not centuries, can just pound a perfectly functioning government and political entity out of the ground in a few weeks, with president and all?
Please.
I never said what was shown on Enterprise was perfect!
Anway nobody said that the founding member created the Federation in a matter of weeks, nor was that ever implied or shown!
Yes, you did, yes it was. The moment you want a Federation president, and thus a functioning Federation government (which Journey to Babel clearly showed did not exist) existing from the very founding of the Federation, you indeed say that.
But something took these races where they put there differences aside to where they somehow created the Federation that we seen in all the ST series. Did it start out perfect? I am sure it did not, nor did I ever imply that the Federation or its founding members were. But can these races set aside there differences, make peace, and come together and create something?
I never said that they didn't, if I did, I would be calling all of Star Trek including TOS ridiculous and say a Federation could never be, it's idiotic.
I never said that, now did I?
What I said, that they wouldn't snap their fingers, and poof, they gave up every single last care, objection, problem, distrust they ever had, and let someone else, including those they hated so, rule over them, giving away most of their sovereignty.
What I said, is that they built the Federation piece by little piece, step by little step, brick by little brick, instead of just lowering a fully operational Federation down with a crane.
And no, we did NOT see the same Federation in all the series. A Federation that needs to send Starfleet to a member planet to protect it from another member is NOT the same unified, under one government Federation we saw a century later.
Sure they can! Simply take a look at the US & the Soviet Union, having The Cold War which was a period of conflict, tension and competition between these two countries and their respective allies from the mid-1940s until the early 1990s. But in a short period, peace was made between them. So if peace, cooperation, trade and other things can happen between these two countries that wanted to blow each other off the planet, then why can't 4 races from ST put aside there difference?
You actually believe that shit?
Alright, fine - I admit it, there's a super government in place above the Soviet Union and the US that can order both their governments and presidents around. They have a unified military that is under the super government's control, while they themselves retain only minimal militias. And they only did that before a year after the wall fell was over.
Seriously, do you even BOTHER with such things as the news? The US and the Russians still don't like each other, they practically hate each other, and are thwarting each other economically and tossing around their UN veto rights to screw the other over all the time. They did not build a damn thing together, they're just trying to exploit each other to get a better economic position.
Again saying that Enterprise does not count and statements from other series are mistakes or that it does not jive with your interpretation is not good enough reason to disregard being so far you have not shown any real reasons to disregard any of the information except for that it does not back up your personnel opinions.
Please, go watch Journey to Babel again, and then bother to come back here.
anyone disagreeing with 3DMaster should save their effort. it's a waste of time. he's locked into his mind-set and won't budge. you'd get more sense talking to a brick wall...
This is very true, but its pretty funny seeing 3DMaster going on and on without any canon information. Its almost like he is getting his ideas from a book called "Star Trek according to 3DMaster".
I've got canon information up the wazoo. But just because something wasn't literally spelled out before you, you refuse to accept that blatant canon information.
Anyone who watches Journey to Babel knows there is no Federation government and no Federation president. Anyone who can come away from that episode saying that there is, is either an idiot, or someone who stuck his fingers in his ears going, "Ladida! There's a Federation president, there's a Federation president! I don't care what this episode shows and says, I don't care how utterly DISunified the members are in this episode, there's a Federation president, and there's a unified government. Ladida!"
