Picard; push over?

[RobertScorpio]

Was Picard a captain or a push over...I served in the military for many many years, and never saw this kind of behavior from the officers...

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi on one of his 'positronic brain farts'...

What give??? Was Picard a Captain or a push over..


Rob
Scorpio

 

[PhoenixIreland]

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

In the USA at the moment you will see some governers etc being asked if they wanna be VP and the joke "I dont want to be demoted" is often heard, because even tho the title is higher the job is worse.
Same with being an admiral, remember how depressed Kirk got when he became one? and the speach Dax gave Sisko over why he should never be one.

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

The guy he killed also tried to kill Worfs CO don't forget. Might have helped him overlook it

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Im sure holaddiction would qualify as a mental illness?

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

Her role is half civilian, but I agree when she was on bridge duty that was a tad lax.

I don't think those examples make him a pushover

 

[doublegood]

It stands to reason that Starfleet was under the impression that Picard had Q in his pocket. That alone would be reason to let him do whatever the hell he wants.

 

[CaptainStoner]

1. There is a long precedent of Captains not wanting to move to Admiral, especially when they've got the Enterprise.

2. Worf was guilty of leaving the ship to do Klingon stuff without authorization, but the killing was well within his rights as a Klingon. I think Picard dealt with it appropriately, and 4 years is an eternity on TV/film.

3. Probably not the Captain's perogative to concern himself with what everyone does on the holodeck. With Barclay, his problems were spilling over into his work.

4. Troi could wear what she pleased. A good Captain knows to pick his battles, and to quit when he's ahead.

5. Data's malfunctions were almost always a good plot device, and a lot of fun. Good Captains rarely mess with the writers. Unless it's to sell a Vulcan nerve pinch or something like that.

 

[Kegek]

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

Kirk (to Picard): Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge, of that ship. Because as long as you're there, you can make a difference

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

Problem is he probably didn't do anything illegal. He had a legitimate greivance with Duras, and given the way Klingon culture is honour killings are probably tacitly permitted, if not encouraged. Beyond frowning at it, what should Picard do? Hold back an otherwise talented officer? The Klingon issue in general is certainly thorny when it comes into conflict with Federation ethics, I'll give you that, and Picard (wisely) usually takes the diplomatic approach when they conflict.

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

I presume you mean Barclay. Your point is...? As far as his holoaddiction goes, he was treated for it. He's on the Enterprise because, despite his social hangups, he's a talented engineering specialist.

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

Okay, so he doesn't demand she wears a uniform.... and?

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi

Come now. The holodeck is far more dangerous.

Picard's hardly a disciplinarian. But in general I think he was an awfully sensible fellow.

 

[Red Ranger]

Short answer: Picard is not a pushover. Just because he acts differently from the military officers you served with, RobertScorpio, doesn't really mean that much.

First, as mentioned several times in the show, Starfleet isn't completely a military outfit, despite the ranks and regulations. Hell, the Salvation Army has military ranks. Is it completely military? No. While Starfleet certainly has more in common with what we now know as military organizations, it has other functions our modern-day navies and armies don't, such as exploration and scientific research.

Also, and I've made this point many times, and will continue to do so, on this board, the nature of command and discipline have changed over centuries even in strictly military organizations. For example, sailors aren't whipped in today's navy for insubordination, nor are they keelhauled. Hell, just a few short decades ago, a drill sergeant could strike an enlisted person under his command during basic training, but that's no longer allowed.

As for the examples you cited of Picard being a push-over, I think I'll let the other answers from previous posters speak to those instances.

Red Ranger

 

[RAMA]

Was Picard a captain or a push over...I served in the military for many many years, and never saw this kind of behavior from the officers...

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi on one of his 'positronic brain farts'...

What give??? Was Picard a Captain or a push over..


Rob
Scorpio

Well at best Starfleet is pseudo military..there are elements that are far less military than the 20th century, so on that level you'd have to give officers in the 24th century some slack.

You had holodecks in the navy?? No wonder you never saw this behavior! OK, so first of all, we saw nothing pornographic in the holodeck, but even if we did, are you telling me no one in the navy today has porn?? The Navy can't really control the off time of personnel even today. You think they don't do anything "pornographic" on leave?

Worf disobeyed orders, but in a 24th century Starfleet you have to take into account widely varying alien culture's customs. On top of that, Picard understood there were mitigating circumstances.

Data is a prototype basically, and determining just how he functions out in the field is precisely what Starfleet would be interested in.

What a rehash. I thought this was all understood already??

RAMA

 

[RobertScorpio]

Was Picard a captain or a push over...I served in the military for many many years, and never saw this kind of behavior from the officers...

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi on one of his 'positronic brain farts'...

What give??? Was Picard a Captain or a push over..


Rob
Scorpio

Well at best Starfleet is pseudo military..there are elements that are far less military than the 20th century, so on that level you'd have to give officers in the 24th century some slack.

You had holodecks in the navy?? No wonder you never saw this behavior! OK, so first of all, we saw nothing pornographic in the holodeck, but even if we did, are you telling me no one in the navy today has porn?? The Navy can't really control the off time of personnel even today. You think they don't do anything "pornographic" on leave?

Worf disobeyed orders, but in a 24th century Starfleet you have to take into account widely varying alien culture's customs. On top of that, Picard understood there were mitigating circumstances.

Data is a prototype basically, and determining just how he functions out in the field is precisely what Starfleet would be interested in.

What a rehash. I thought this was all understood already??

RAMA

Aint buying the Worf stuff. Who cares if he comes from a society where revenge murder is allowed. By allowing him to do it, and not others, smacks of not treating people equally...

And the Navy I served in? If anyone, black or white, murdered another person, on the ship of another country no less, he would be on charges for murder whether or not the other country pressed charges or not...

What kind of hooey are you shoveling? Picard let that officer of his get away with MURDER. It is as cut and dry as it seems.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[RobertScorpio]

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

Kirk (to Picard): Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge, of that ship. Because as long as you're there, you can make a difference

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

Problem is he probably didn't do anything illegal. He had a legitimate greivance with Duras, and given the way Klingon culture is honour killings are probably tacitly permitted, if not encouraged. Beyond frowning at it, what should Picard do? Hold back an otherwise talented officer? The Klingon issue in general is certainly thorny when it comes into conflict with Federation ethics, I'll give you that, and Picard (wisely) usually takes the diplomatic approach when they conflict.


I presume you mean Barclay. Your point is...? As far as his holoaddiction goes, he was treated for it. He's on the Enterprise because, despite his social hangups, he's a talented engineering specialist.

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

Okay, so he doesn't demand she wears a uniform.... and?

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi

Come now. The holodeck is far more dangerous.

Picard's hardly a disciplinarian. But in general I think he was an awfully sensible fellow.

Everyone of your excuses, and that is what they are, prove to me he is even more of a push over than I thought...

Murder is murder. Are you really saying that anyone in the Star Trek universe who comes from a world that allows revenge murders will be allowed to do just that, while everyone else will be charged with murder?

Nope..equal justice is just that..equal. Once you start down that slipper slope of saying laws do or do not apply simply because of what world or custome they come from, it can only result in no equality.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[zakfa]

This sounds like The Drumhead again

But yeah Worf should of been disciplined a lot more severely. I think his act of tossing his communicator before he goes over there wasn't just so they couldn't locate/beam him, but also was a gesture of oh well i'm going to get thrown out of starfleet screw it.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Justice isn't always black and white.
But what you call a "pushover" is really more a pragmatist. He doesn't get pushed around by his crew. Where are you getting this impression from? Picard is very much in command. He's not a dick, but he's in command. And it's well within his character to make his own judgements when things get grey. A pushover wouldn't know what to do and wouldn't be able to handle situations like that.

 

[RAMA]

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

Kirk (to Picard): Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge, of that ship. Because as long as you're there, you can make a difference



Problem is he probably didn't do anything illegal. He had a legitimate greivance with Duras, and given the way Klingon culture is honour killings are probably tacitly permitted, if not encouraged. Beyond frowning at it, what should Picard do? Hold back an otherwise talented officer? The Klingon issue in general is certainly thorny when it comes into conflict with Federation ethics, I'll give you that, and Picard (wisely) usually takes the diplomatic approach when they conflict.


I presume you mean Barclay. Your point is...? As far as his holoaddiction goes, he was treated for it. He's on the Enterprise because, despite his social hangups, he's a talented engineering specialist.



Okay, so he doesn't demand she wears a uniform.... and?

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi

Come now. The holodeck is far more dangerous.

Picard's hardly a disciplinarian. But in general I think he was an awfully sensible fellow.

Everyone of your excuses, and that is what they are, prove to me he is even more of a push over than I thought...

Murder is murder. Are you really saying that anyone in the Star Trek universe who comes from a world that allows revenge murders will be allowed to do just that, while everyone else will be charged with murder?

Nope..equal justice is just that..equal. Once you start down that slipper slope of saying laws do or do not apply simply because of what world or custome they come from, it can only result in no equality.

Rob
Scorpio

I don't think its that cut and dried. What Worf did was basically a ritualized version of a duel. I think STNG said it best, when laws become absolute, then justice suffers. Picard understood he broke the rules, but also understood it was Worf' version of justice. There was no need to discipline over the killing of Duras, only for breaking the "rules" hence the seemingly light sentence.

RAMA

 

[Red Ranger]

Kirk (to Picard): Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge, of that ship. Because as long as you're there, you can make a difference



Problem is he probably didn't do anything illegal. He had a legitimate greivance with Duras, and given the way Klingon culture is honour killings are probably tacitly permitted, if not encouraged. Beyond frowning at it, what should Picard do? Hold back an otherwise talented officer? The Klingon issue in general is certainly thorny when it comes into conflict with Federation ethics, I'll give you that, and Picard (wisely) usually takes the diplomatic approach when they conflict.


I presume you mean Barclay. Your point is...? As far as his holoaddiction goes, he was treated for it. He's on the Enterprise because, despite his social hangups, he's a talented engineering specialist.



Okay, so he doesn't demand she wears a uniform.... and?

Come now. The holodeck is far more dangerous.

Picard's hardly a disciplinarian. But in general I think he was an awfully sensible fellow.

Everyone of your excuses, and that is what they are, prove to me he is even more of a push over than I thought...

Murder is murder. Are you really saying that anyone in the Star Trek universe who comes from a world that allows revenge murders will be allowed to do just that, while everyone else will be charged with murder?

Nope..equal justice is just that..equal. Once you start down that slipper slope of saying laws do or do not apply simply because of what world or custome they come from, it can only result in no equality.

Rob
Scorpio

I don't think its that cut and dried. What Worf did was basically a ritualized version of a duel. I think STNG said it best, when laws become absolute, then justice suffers. Picard understood he broke the rules, but also understood it was Worf' version of justice. There was no need to discipline over the killing of Duras, only for breaking the "rules" hence the seemingly light sentence.

RAMA

Well, I think RobertScorpio is looking at Picard from a particularly biased view: that of a 20th/21st century former military man. And the rest of us who disagree with RS are looking at it from a much more broader perspective, recognizing it as a future world where our own preconceived notions of justice and military discipline are just as out of date as a 17th century naval officer would be calling the captain of a modern-day ship lax for not keelhauling a crew member for a similar offense. It is what it is, RS! -- RR

 

[Red Ranger]

Justice isn't always black and white.
But what you call a "pushover" is really more a pragmatist. He doesn't get pushed around by his crew. Where are you getting this impression from? Picard is very much in command. He's not a dick, but he's in command. And it's well within his character to make his own judgements when things get grey. A pushover wouldn't know what to do and wouldn't be able to handle situations like that.

Well said. Also, there's the Prime Directive to consider. Perhaps there's a corrolary that allows for a captain's discretion in the case of someone like Worf exercising his "right of vengeance." And he did receive a reprimand on his record, which probably means Worf's advancement in Starfleet was compromised. After all, he doesn't get another promotion till GEN to lt. cmdr., several years later. -- RR

 

[RAMA]

Was Picard a captain or a push over...I served in the military for many many years, and never saw this kind of behavior from the officers...

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi on one of his 'positronic brain farts'...

What give??? Was Picard a Captain or a push over..


Rob
Scorpio

You know it occurred to me yesterday, Kirk must have been one hell of a pushover to allow Spock to do all that BS in "Amok Time". Or McCoy in "For the Planet is Hollow...".

RAMA

 

[Philo]

Data is a prototype basically, and determining just how he functions out in the field is precisely what Starfleet would be interested in.

Well, RobertScorpio, initially I was with you about Data. I honestly couldn't think of any justification for it but Rama makes a good point. It's still a little flimsy but I can buy it.

Aint buying the Worf stuff. Who cares if he comes from a society where revenge murder is allowed. By allowing him to do it, and not others, smacks of not treating people equally...

And the Navy I served in? If anyone, black or white, murdered another person, on the ship of another country no less, he would be on charges for murder whether or not the other country pressed charges or not...

What kind of hooey are you shoveling? Picard let that officer of his get away with MURDER. It is as cut and dry as it seems.

You make a compelling argument here, and you almost won me over but then I realized your analogy is a little flawed. I agree that, ethically, murder is murder, but legally, it's more akin to a lawful execution than a cold-blooded killing. In this case, Worf is the legal equivalent to the doctor that administers the lethal injection.

I doubt your CO would have had a problem with you returning to your home country to legally execute the man who murdered your wife. He would have had a problem with you doing it during your duty shift but that's why Worf received the reprimand.

 

[Colonel Green]

Was Picard a captain or a push over...I served in the military for many many years, and never saw this kind of behavior from the officers...

We have a captain who will NOT take a hint and accept promotion

We have a klingon officer who can beam over to another ship, kill someone, and come back to work with a slap on the wrist (he was promoted in rank only four short years later)

We have a crewman who likes to go into the holo-deck and get his jollies with holographic (pornographic i hope) women to accomplish this

Then we have an Empath, Troi, walking around in some zany outfit while all the other people have to wear uniforms (this was to show off her ample breast, but still)

And then we have Data. This guy malfunctions two or three times a season, takes over the ship, almost kills Worf-Alexander-Troi on one of his 'positronic brain farts'...

What give??? Was Picard a Captain or a push over..


Rob
Scorpio

You know it occurred to me yesterday, Kirk must have been one hell of a pushover to allow Spock to do all that BS in "Amok Time". Or McCoy in "For the Planet is Hollow...".

RAMA

QFT

 

[Nimravus]

Welcome to a Star Trek forum, where Picard is doubtlessly worshipped as God (and I am no exception). You will find nobody here who will agree with you.

Still, I agree with the others above me. I also have nothing new to add to the debate.

 

[loldrey]

If everything was all protocol and there were no boobs, the show would have had horrible ratings.

 

[AlxxlA]

If everything was all protocol and there were no boobs, the show would have had horrible ratings.

I couldn't have said it better myself.