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constitution class?

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But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later!

Actually, such a seal would usually indicate that one of the organizations is subordinate to the other. In this case, I'd rather think UESPA is subordinate to Starfleet Command than vice versa, as a "space probe" agency seems to perform a narrow slice of the work of Starfleet.

It might be that exploration is a relatively novel thing for Earth space services, since you can't really explore much before you get high-warp vessels. That is, you could if the space immediately around your planet of origin were unexplored, but in Trek this isn't the case as Vulcans are there to tell Earthlings that it has all been surveyed already.

United Earth might have originally had a large mostly military organization with assorted commands like Military Assault Command, Military Logistics Command and Starfleet Command. When space exploration became technologically easier and gained in importance, an agency or several attached themselves to Starfleet to pursue their goals with the help of Starfleet hardware. With time, the balance of power would start to shift, with Military Assault becoming insignificant and Starfleet Exploration becoming crucial for Earth's survival - and a mariginal organization like UESPA would become a very important one (much like the once mariginal Marine Corps has become vital for the United States through assorted foreign policy changes).

How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE

It deeply saddens me to see that people devoted to following a literally fantastic show about an improbable future far away from home would choose to view that show through its "Earthly" aspects.

Many of the people involved in making Star Trek are assholes by definition - that's Hollywood for ya. Certainly many of the people involved in making TOS were. Why should we care? I've never met any of these personalities, thankfully. Instead, I've seen what they have produced. Much of it is satisfactory. Much of it relies heavily on the support of the larger framework of a well-built fictional universe, and wouldn't stand alone without that crutch. But I have nothing against those who need and use crutches, not when they can dance beautiful ballet with such an aid.

Whether a particular spinoff was produced by a philandering egomaniac, a bean-counting herbert, or a hopelessly nerdy team of fans is neither here nor there. The end result is rarely dictated by the nature of the creators, and instead reflects the times and the demand of the market. We are part of that market, part of that demand. We aren't any part of what "TPTB" choose to do on their working hours, let alone on their free time, and it really amazes me that any of us should care. Except for the devoted groupies, of course - a valid subgroup of followers to any movement, but probably not the one for which this forum chiefly caters.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Starfleet_UESPA.jpg


The UESPA might not have been mentioned before the second season of TOS. But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later! Therefore this Earth organization did not remain intact and was supplanted sometime before the launching of the NX-01.

No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

Skip over my post showing that Starfleet was introduced in First Season?
 
No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

Yes, STARFLEET was mentioned before the second season in (TOS "The Menagerie"). It was also mentioned many times in Enterprise which is "canon".
:

How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE, because Wise & co wouldn't let him paste the nx into the wall of ship pics in the refit rec room? Here he is, rewriting history to suit himself, and we are supposed to take that as canon because that no-talent Berman hired him and put him in a position to help mess thing sup worse in ModernTrek?

Your notion of canon is my notion of 'why not to watch.'

How serious can we take some who drags some unsubstaniated rumour of "story" as proof of that Braga tried to "Change history". Never mind that if it was changed it would not change history one iota. It would have been a picture of a fictional ship in the rec room of another fictional ship. History doesn't factor into it.
 
Yes, STARFLEET was mentioned before the second season in (TOS "The Menagerie"). It was also mentioned many times in Enterprise which is "canon".
:

How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE, because Wise & co wouldn't let him paste the nx into the wall of ship pics in the refit rec room? Here he is, rewriting history to suit himself, and we are supposed to take that as canon because that no-talent Berman hired him and put him in a position to help mess thing sup worse in ModernTrek?

Your notion of canon is my notion of 'why not to watch.'

How serious can we take some who drags some unsubstaniated rumour of "story" as proof of that Braga tried to "Change history". .

I'm a legitimate journalist who has had tens of thousands of words published professionally on TREK and tons more on other films. I've spent more effort here trying to correct the usual myth as fact BS than most, so of course that means my views are unsubstantiated?

I discussed this a couple years back and I wasn't going to reveal a twice-removed source then or now. Reason: it ain't the right thing to do. I wouldn't have done it before I lost a job because somebody revealed me as a source, and I wouldn't do it now, nearly a decade after that DID happen to me. If you don't want to believe it, fine. My conscience is clear, and so are my facts.
 
How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE, because Wise & co wouldn't let him paste the nx into the wall of ship pics in the refit rec room? Here he is, rewriting history to suit himself, and we are supposed to take that as canon because that no-talent Berman hired him and put him in a position to help mess thing sup worse in ModernTrek?

Your notion of canon is my notion of 'why not to watch.'

How serious can we take some who drags some unsubstaniated rumour of "story" as proof of that Braga tried to "Change history". .

I'm a legitimate journalist who has had tens of thousands of words published professionally on TREK and tons more on other films. I've spent more effort here trying to correct the usual myth as fact BS than most, so of course that means my views are unsubstantiated?

I discussed this a couple years back and I wasn't going to reveal a twice-removed source then or now. Reason: it ain't the right thing to do. I wouldn't have done it before I lost a job because somebody revealed me as a source, and I wouldn't do it now, nearly a decade after that DID happen to me. If you don't want to believe it, fine. My conscience is clear, and so are my facts.

Your views are unsubstantiated because you can't back them up. It's still something you admittedly heard secondhand. Your status as a legitimate published journalist doesn't really factor into this. Neither does your mythbusting and BS correcting. I do a little of that myself as shown in my reply to 3-D Master. I just object to dragging distractions like Braga and what he did or didn't into this discussion. It really has no place in my opinion. It's like bringing up GR hedonism or the way he tried to grab credit for the TOS theme. Not all that relevent. I prefer to stick to verifiable facts and leave personalities out of it.
 
No, STARFLEET was not mentioned before the second season. UESPA was what Kirk existed under before the second seasond.

And like I said, you can toss Enterprise on the trash heap, because that's what it is: TRASH.

Starfleet before a Federation - :shakes head at the idiocy:

Yes, STARFLEET was mentioned before the second season in (TOS "The Menagerie"). It was also mentioned many times in Enterprise which is "canon".
:

How serious can we take your canon when there are stories about Braga having a hissy fit over the TMP DE, because Wise & co wouldn't let him paste the nx into the wall of ship pics in the refit rec room? Here he is, rewriting history to suit himself, and we are supposed to take that as canon because that no-talent Berman hired him and put him in a position to help mess thing sup worse in ModernTrek?

Your notion of canon is my notion of 'why not to watch.'

Stories are not canon, what I just posted is canon!

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/help/faqs/faq/676.html
 
I still think the Enterprise class could refer to the simulator (which was obviously built to resemble the Enterprise), or to the "Enterprise class" of cadets who would soon be posted to that ship (doesn't it make sense for a group of cadets to be trained together, in anticipation of being posted to a given ship?).

I agree with this especially in light of McCoy's line earlier about it being easier to put an experienced crew back on the ship.
 
But a seal of the combined UESPA and Starfleet is shown in (ENT: "Demons") at Starfleet Command, which shows they were combined before the creation of Federation and not much later!

Actually, such a seal would usually indicate that one of the organizations is subordinate to the other. In this case, I'd rather think UESPA is subordinate to Starfleet Command than vice versa, as a "space probe" agency seems to perform a narrow slice of the work of Starfleet.

It might be that exploration is a relatively novel thing for Earth space services, since you can't really explore much before you get high-warp vessels. That is, you could if the space immediately around your planet of origin were unexplored, but in Trek this isn't the case as Vulcans are there to tell Earthlings that it has all been surveyed already.

United Earth might have originally had a large mostly military organization with assorted commands like Military Assault Command, Military Logistics Command and Starfleet Command. When space exploration became technologically easier and gained in importance, an agency or several attached themselves to Starfleet to pursue their goals with the help of Starfleet hardware. With time, the balance of power would start to shift, with Military Assault becoming insignificant and Starfleet Exploration becoming crucial for Earth's survival - and a mariginal organization like UESPA would become a very important one (much like the once mariginal Marine Corps has become vital for the United States through assorted foreign policy changes).

Of which I agree with and have stated. Which was that the UESPA merged or was supplanted into Starfleet, i.e. the IESPA is an organization thats under Starfleet command like other various organization.
 
In "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" both UESPA and Starfleet are mentioned. So they co-existed and the Enterprise was under the authority of both.
 
Which means the FEDERATION Starfleet is still but a small organization heavily tied with and partially under control of the individual members organization (most notably the ships fielded by those individual members). It reflects a step by step growing with many growing pains and member interferences, and resulting bureaucracies - not Starfleet being an Earth organization which is just plain ridiculous.
 
No one said Starfleet (TOS) is an Earth organization, just that Earth once had an organization called Starfleet.
 
Sure it did. You may not like the idea and you may not like the show the idea was used in, but that doesn't really change the fact that in Star Trek Universe Earth had an organization called "Starfleet" and the term was also used for the UFP space based exploration organization.
 
Setting ENT aside for the moment, I'm not sure how one would infer that the TOS Starfleet belonged to Earth. I tend to think it was the Federation's fleet, with the UESPA being an Earth-specific organization. One can always say that ENT used the term for Earth's fleet, but personally I think the producers just copied it because it was used in most of the other series.
 
Why couldn't Earth's Starfleet have been the model for the Federation Starfleet after its formation and the Federation members just decided to use that name (or at least the Terrans did; I'm sure it's called something else in Vulcan, Andorian, etc)?
 
Perhaps "star fleet" was used by United Earth, and by the time of TOS has become just a generic word for that kind of service. Much like "air force," originally referring to the Royal Air Force, has become the generic English term for similar organizations in other countries. Thus the TOS Starfleet would not necessarily be a successor organization to the ENT one, though they might share a common heritage to some extent.

I figure UESPA is a civilian organization similar to NASA, the ENT seal pictured above could be for a cooperative venture between UESPA and Starfleet, not necessarily implying that they are combined or that one is subordinate to the other. By TOS time, UESPA could still be around, and could have an arrangement whereby UFP Starfleet vessels are used for UESPA missions of varying duration.

--Justin
 
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