However, I answered "no" because I can't recall at anythime on DS9 that a Starfleet officer broke the rules and was subject to Bajorian law.No.Thanks for the explanation.
So in theory then if the EMH were on DS9 he would be subject to Bajoran law even though he's in Starfleet just as every other Starfleet officer would be, correct?
You mean "yes".
Its a Prime Directive matter if you follow TNG Justice where Picard was supposed to let Wesley be executed (but couldn't quite go through with it.) for running on the grass and even Voy Q squared and I quote Icheb as contemptuously as possible "Captain Janeway taught me to respect the laws of other cultures" when she insisted the kid answered up to a death sentence for merely trespassing. But then Janeway bowed to the Devore Inspections despite giving them reason enough to jail the lot of them forever because she believed in her own moral superiority over the dominant legal authority in the region because she takes into account the fire power of the local yokels quoting backwater law, especially in the case of the Krenim who needed to have a little more in his Torpedo launcher before she'd take their advice seriously! Did she even think about turning around and handing over Tuvok to the Sikaran's after he stole their transporter technology in Prime Factors? No she didn't. Instead she promoted him. Respect other cultures my ass.
It's no different than if an American solider is in Mexico and murders a prostitute.
Navy Seals is the worst movie ever made.
Flesh and Blood and holograms
- Thread starter KayArr
- Start date
Bottom line is, when it came to the Doctor, Janeway was a walkover. I have to believe that it would have pissed some of the human crew off to see how much latitude Janeway gave the Doctor and how easily she forgave him. Instead, they all seemed to feel it better to come to the rescue when he had put the safety of the ship in serious jeopardy, rather than tell Janeway that he needed an overhaul for the safety and well being of the other humans on board.
It was a military, command structure ship. There is no way other soldiers/engineers and so on would want to leave a program with so many dangerous flaws running, let alone give it more control, ie ECH.
It was a military, command structure ship. There is no way other soldiers/engineers and so on would want to leave a program with so many dangerous flaws running, let alone give it more control, ie ECH.
During the circle trilogy at the beginning of season two the Bajoran government told Sisko to *&^% off. He had to hide in the airducts and play it commando style... But really DS9 was always described as a Bajoran Station with a Federation Administrator. Middle management. What the Bajorans wanted was for the Cardassians to show up and kill Sisko, after which the Federation would be forced to go to war wit Cardassia and destroy the heck out of them. Sisko was a more effective deterrent to Caradassian reoccupation in the first few seasons than a dozen phaser banks.
But a crew that was now a family would. The crew didn't care because they saw the Doc. as one of them. Chakotay, Be'Lanna, Tuvok, Seven & even Neelix all broke the rules and Janeway never punished any of them. She only punished Tom because what he did in "Thirty Day's" involved the planets government.
Tom, Be'Lanna & some other Maquis weren't soldiers,most left Starfleet because they couldn't handle being disappline. People like Suder couldn't function within normal society, so the Maquis became a way for many of them to focus their aggressive tendancies. It doesn't make them soldiers, just people looking for a fight.
Plus, Voyager still needed a Doctor. Just like Janeway couldn't punish Seven & Be'Lanna because their knowledge and rank were still required on ship that small and one lost.
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He was. He was treated the same way Tuvok, Neelix, Chakotay & Be'Lanna were. Disobeying you're family isn't the same as disobeying government law. Tuvok, Neelix, Chakotay & Be'lanna all broke rules set on Voyager, Tom broke laws set by that planets government.
What the Doctor did happens all the time in our society today, when a group of people that share like ideas & commonalities are denied rights within "normal" society and form sub-cultures. The Doctor turning his back on Janeway and her values to find his own are no different that a gay child turning his back his families religious values to find his own within his own culture. It's also why major cities all over the US have a "China Town" or "Little Italy", they were all cultures rejected by the norm and sub-cultures developed from them.
"Flesh & Blood" was Trek's way of showing the Stonewall riots. Which happen in NYC in 1950 when people of Alternative lifestyles banned together to openly protest the harrassment & brutality they were recieving at the hands of the NYPD for just being who they are. Simply holding hands was enough to get you beaten and thrown in jail by the police. When these people approached government officials they were given what they saw as a brush off, so they took matters into their own hands. It was the catalyst to the gay Civil Rights movement you see today.
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The doctor can be tortured (Futures End II) have his sense of morality rejiggered (Equinox) and be forced to realtively live out vast tracts of time in reality at super speed (wink of an eye, Blink?) or just be programed to think he had, be can be gidgitted with a leash (that one with Benny from LA Law.) or have portions of his memories erased (Latent Image) to control his emotional states or have his physicality altered to the point that he's even a gnome or even castrate him since his penis is extraneous to his function and a selfindulgent addition of his own creation he really doesn't deserve.
Take 6 inches of hieght the bugger every time he acts up. that'll teach him that he should be greatful for the life they allow him... I still can't believe that she allowed him to leave to pursue his singing career and not replace him with the "back up" or even make him the back up for the next ten years while...
Punishing the Doctor for being a traitor is easy.
Hell if it really comes down to it hold his wife and kid hostage and maybe kill one of them to prove to him that they're serious. It's not like Janeway can't wash Tuvix's blood off her hands already no matter how hard she scrubs that she won't even notice the slaughter of a couple holographic characters.
A military officer disobeying a direct order is not the same as a civilian protesting a repressive policy. The Doctor also put another officer in danger - again while disobeying a direct order.
So much for the lesson in history, huh?
The similarities in the Stonewall riots and Flesh & Blood didn't even make any impression at all, did it?
Well, I'll post the info here anyway. Maybe other posters will be willing to expand their education and see the similarities while understand why Janeway wouldn't punish someone for their expression of being different. After all, Trek is about the human condition, not the upholding of military law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
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However there have been instances where holo characters have developed self-awareness if left on too long. This was established back in TNG with the Professor Moriarty character in the Sherlock Holmes program. As for Voyager's emh he became self-aware again from being activated so often. As Janeway told him, "You don't have the luxury of only thinking of yourself as a hologram." Not only did he become a member of the crew but he fell in love, developed his own hobbies and friendships, etc.
The question of his sentience was settled imo during "Latent Image." At first, the crew treated him like a machine and tried reprogramming him when his moral dilemma caused him to "malfunction". Eventually they realized he would just have to suffer through it like the rest of us would in that situation.
Actually, in TNG the solution was to box up the good professor... Picard left it running at his pleasure, but he was still removed from the real universe and fooled into his own jail
The situation in Latent Image was one way to deal with it... frankly I feel Janeway should have just reprogrammed him and been done with it. Remove all EMH files after that stardate.
The situation in Latent Image was one way to deal with it... frankly I feel Janeway should have just reprogrammed him and been done with it. Remove all EMH files after that stardate.
Thank you for broadening our field of argument. Though the riots happened in 1969.
Cops are just bastards when they have to be, and they have to be a lot of the time because they're told to keep the scum in line. Who the police decide is worth putting their boot into when they really don't have to is symptomatic of larger problems with society.
very simply, if the Doctor disagreed with the house rules, he constantly had the opportunity to leave. Instead he imposed conditions to his service which might not have been palatable to a more Bligh like commander. Seven's willfulness in seaons four really had me thinking that she was just going to be marooned with a couple TV dinners after she killed that 8472 soon enough, meanwhile Lon just got confined to his quarters fro the rest of his life.
I'd more liken it to the arguments of the 19th century and before that black people had no souls so they didn't have to be treated like real people, a belief which kept on trucking well after the abolition of slavery.
Well they did try to reprogram him but wouldn't removing all EMH files after that stardate affect his ability to treat the crew?
I don't see how it would affect his ability. If anything, I would have enjoyed having the doctor have a complete wipe sometime in the 3rd season... I think it would have added another dimension to his character by reverting him. I think he became too much "crew," and this de-emphasized what made him such a great character in the beginning
Moriarty only thinks he is real because that will entertain Geordie and Data. Gomez says please and thank you to replicators. that's just the soprt of peopel they are. My goodness the amount of energy data spent protesting that he was emotionless and they refused to believe him. They were all too romantic for their own good.
Ask the Doctor to work out Pi and he'd fall into the same funk that triage did. Do we really think he figured it out? Or did they just get bored and rewire him better? How many months would they have put up with that crap for? Did the back up take over?
Moriarty can possess a Borg Drone. They have a viable long term option instead of his false world Picard is honor bound to execute. But nothing on that front so far.
That's an interesting take on the character. While I do prefer the Doctor from the earlier seasons I'm curious to know what you mean by "too much crew".
In the beginning he was just the right amount of tool no different than a shoe horn or a toothbrush
I mean that he is supposed to be the "Data/Spock" outsider role. While Data learned some human traits over his 7 years on the Enterprise, it wasn't until the "emotion chip" (and Brent Spiner's control of the character via the script) films that the Data character was ruined. Data was an unique character, striving to learn what it is to be human... examining human nature.I'm curious to know what you mean by "too much crew".
The Doctor all but became human... He added what was missing to complete the sexual part... Hell, the only thing missing was for him to have his own quarters to "sleep" in. I enjoyed the doctor from the first few seasons and would have liked to have kept that character.
The Doctor was in a military environment, he even told janeway that he out ranked her when it came to her health. If he was a civilian, he wouldn't even mention that.
Let's face it, the doctor was spoilt rotten and any other character on Voyager would have envied the freedom and leeway he was given by Janeway. He was obviously written to show the plight of the down trodden and the oppressed minorities, for me though, he just highlighted how those that whine the most get the most. Kim never moaned about his lot in life to the crew or Janeway and after 7 years, he was still an ensign.
Lesson for all of you, complain and you will get more. Of course no one will be able to stand being around you but you will get more.
Let's face it, the doctor was spoilt rotten and any other character on Voyager would have envied the freedom and leeway he was given by Janeway. He was obviously written to show the plight of the down trodden and the oppressed minorities, for me though, he just highlighted how those that whine the most get the most. Kim never moaned about his lot in life to the crew or Janeway and after 7 years, he was still an ensign.
Lesson for all of you, complain and you will get more. Of course no one will be able to stand being around you but you will get more.
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