Thanks, NCC-1701. I appreciate it. As usual, you rock.
whos your fave?
- Thread starter armyofdaleks
- Start date
I personally liked how they handled the character of Tom. I think the ending was great as the "flawed-hero" got his chance at redemtion and to find love, family, and happiness, the things he perhaps never thought he'd have. I get all teary eyed thinking about how he finally gained acceptance and love for being who he was, Tom Paris. He only ever changed for the better and to see an underdog achieve something is the greatest story of all!
Here's to Tom Paris in all his endearding flawed splendidness!!!
Here's to Tom Paris in all his endearding flawed splendidness!!!
^ Oh, I do not begrudge him his happiness or anything like that. I'm glad for him in that regard...although I do wish that they had done something in Endgame to resolve the issues with his father.
However, maybe we are all attracted to people who might be something like us. I can tell you that is certainly why Kira is my favorite female Trek character. It's because she is closest to ME of any Trek character, I think: spunky, yet principled and willing to go down fighting for her beliefs. Me to a tee.
I saw some of that spunk in Tom at the beginning of the show....and really all the way until after 30 Days. But then in the later seasons he became more and more domesticated. Good for him...and good for B'Elanna...but just not as interesting for me.
Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary. Nobody's 'right' and nobody's 'wrong' here - it's just what appeals to the individual.
However, maybe we are all attracted to people who might be something like us. I can tell you that is certainly why Kira is my favorite female Trek character. It's because she is closest to ME of any Trek character, I think: spunky, yet principled and willing to go down fighting for her beliefs. Me to a tee.
I saw some of that spunk in Tom at the beginning of the show....and really all the way until after 30 Days. But then in the later seasons he became more and more domesticated. Good for him...and good for B'Elanna...but just not as interesting for me.
Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary. Nobody's 'right' and nobody's 'wrong' here - it's just what appeals to the individual.
The moderator is wise.Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary. Nobody's 'right' and nobody's 'wrong' here - it's just what appeals to the individual.
The moderator is wise.Of course, everyone is different and your mileage may vary. Nobody's 'right' and nobody's 'wrong' here - it's just what appeals to the individual.
Or maybe just having a good day.
(Makes me mad that won't fit as my title anymore, though. Somehow, "The Moderator is Wis" just don't quite do it for me, ya know?)
Perhaps that's why they end many stories at the "happily ever after" part.
Anyway, I agree "perfect" people aren't as interesting to watch. It's how people rise above the conflict and do the right thing despite themselves that I find interesting. This is why the Chakotay who sacrificed his ship even though he hated Starfleet was interesting while the Chakotay who did nothing in the later seasons was not. Seven was interesting in the beginning but was less interesting as a Mary Sue. Janeway was conflicted because she missed her fiancee yet still had to be "larger than life" for the sake of the crew. Unfortunately, she lost her storyline in the later years.
The thing with Tom and also B'Elanna is that even though they found some happiness with each other they still had their issues to deal with yet despite those issues were true to each other and did their jobs well. Sure, they no longer "hated Starfleet" but they still had stuff to deal with. More so with B'Elanna actually with her half-Klingon heritage, etc.
Perhaps that's why they end many stories at the "happily ever after" part.
Anyway, I agree "perfect" people aren't as interesting to watch. It's how people rise above the conflict and do the right thing despite themselves that I find interesting. This is why the Chakotay who sacrificed his ship even though he hated Starfleet was interesting while the Chakotay who did nothing in the later seasons was not. Seven was interesting in the beginning but was less interesting as a Mary Sue. Janeway was conflicted because she missed her fiancee yet still had to be "larger than life" for the sake of the crew. Unfortunately, she lost her storyline in the later years.
I agree with everything you said here. Part of the reason why I don't really care for the last couple of seasons, in fact, is because I felt it was mainly then that Chakotay took the biggest hit. I'm not sure though, if it was really wussifying him as much as it was nearly writing him out of the show completely. That was a good character in the early seasons. But by the end of the series he was essentially 'technobabble on the bridge guy'...and that really annoyed me. He (and Tuvok and Janeway) were, IMO, the three characters who suffered most as a result of the incessant focus on the EMH and Seven. However IMO, in their cases, their decline was not so much an intentional wussifying as it was just careless and emotionless writing for these characters...when they got any writing at all!
I actually met Robert Beltran at a Trek Con a few years ago, and I told him that I thought he was robbed. Needless to say, he agreed with me.
I do see Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok in a different category than Tom and B'Elanna though. Tom and B'Elanna still got a fair number of episodes - even to the end. I wasn't crazy about Tom's domestication...but he did get a good number of episodes and stories. And I don't think B'Elanna suffered much at all or 'lost' much of anything throughout the series. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that B'Elanna was, IMO, the most consistently written character on VOY. They stayed true to what made her interesting from beginning to end.
Janeway, Chakotay and Tuvok, all took major hits to their screentime and storylines as a direct result of B&B's fascination with the EMH and Seven. And since those three were three of my favorites, I struggled alot during EMH/Seven of Nine Show which VOY became during it's last two years.
Janeway lost screentime, but more than that, I felt that episodes like Endgame and (worse) Flesh & Blood were not written with preservation of the Janeway character in mind. And I felt that they should have been. At the end of the day, she was still the captain, and they should have really thought through Endgame and Flesh & Blood alot better...and asked the simple question: what will these do to Janeway's legacy? Because Janeway's legacy is more important to Trek than finding a way to excuse the beloved EMH character for committing treason.
In my view, THAT's what it is all about, in the end - the captain's legacy. Yeah, the rest of the crew is included in that....but at the end of the day, the overriding legacies of Trek really flow from the characters of Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and Archer.
I adore Janeway...and I pretty much worship Kate Mulgrew (Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew and Leonard Nimoy are the Trek actors I respect most as people), so it really saddened me to see them so focused on other characters that they didn't really think about what they wanted to leave as the Janeway legacy (other than the obvious 'get them home' bit). They were going for the easy ratings with Seven's catsuits mini-me Data experiences...and the EMH's annoying (for me) wisecracks and mini-me Data experiences. And Janeway's main interactions toward the end were mainly to further the storylines of THOSE characters - not her own legacy.
But what they REALLY needed to be doing is asking the harder question: what do we want the legacy of Voyager to be? And then recognized that Voyager's legacy and Janeway's legacy are one and the same.
As for Tuvok...well, he suffered the same fate as Chakotay...only I think they wrote Chakotay somewhat worse, mainly to get back at Beltran for breaking ranks and speaking out about his frustrations.
Tuvok's screentime dropped too...but they did a better job of preserving his dignity by at least not turning him into 'technobabble on the bridge guy'. Tim Russ got screwed...but not quite as screwed as Mulgrew and Beltran did.
At least in my opinion, anyway.
I agree with this for the most part. I think they resolved a bit too much for Tom, as explained earlier
...but I think they did a GREAT job with B'Elanna. As I said, IMO she is the most consistently written character on the show. They grew her character, but never wussified her...and wrote her growth in a believable, interesting, and consistent way, from beginning to end.In fact, now that I think about it, most of the episodes I like from seasons 6 and 7 have to do directly with B'Elanna. I never thought of that before...but now that I'm thinking about it, her character became more and more a 'refuge' for me during the last two seasons. My other faves were taking hits left and right....but B'Elanna's storyline was chugging right along and was being written very well, I thought.
I totally agree. The repercussions from this shortsightedness are still being felt if you consider how Janeway's character is being treated in the newer Pocket books. She is so out of character in them it's unreal.
I agree. I thought they really screwed up Janeway in the later seasons. She became very irrational, not the tower of strength that she was in the early seasons.
Which was a shame because it didn't have any purpose. If her character had become edgy and irrational due to the ongoing story, as a result of the pressure she was on, I might have regarded it different. But as it was, it only came down to bad writing.
I also agree that the other characters, except for Seven, Janeway and The Doctor were sadly wasted in the later seasons (which is my main complaint together with the unnecessary dumping and the later destruction of Kes).
Really a waste because Voyager did, in my opinion, have the best and most interesting characters of all series. So why didn't they use the potential they had?
And was it necessary to dump Kes and Neelix and kill off Lt.Carey?
As for the books, I haven't read any of the later books, except for "Homecoming", "The Farther Shore" and the "String Theory" books but I can see your point.
Janeway was definitely better in the books made during season 1-3. There were a few of them, most notably "Bless The Beasts" and "Ragnarok" where she was out of character but at least the main stories in those books were OK.
I don't read Trek Lit...but I do think that, whether people realize it or not, this is the chief root cause of any 'Voyager hatred' in the Trek community. I don't think it is even something that most people are aware of themselves thinking about or being effected by. But the captain's legacy is key to how that captain (and by extension the entire crew and show) will be perceived and remembered by a number of fans....and ultimately, by 'history'. Yeah...there are 10 or whatever characters on this show...but at the end of the day, it all comes down to Janeway.
It is that way with presidential administrations in real life...and I believe it is that way with Trek crews (and by extension Trek shows) in this little fantasy world we call Star Trek. Cabinet ministers come and go...but the face of the President remains forever. And it is no different here.
I mean, think about it. The Trek shows that are the most popular - at least here at TrekBBS, are the ones where the captain's legacy is very clear...and even larger than life, to an extent. People love 'larger than life'. And I believe that the chief reason Trek even survived as a cult show after cancellation and into the 70's was for one reason and one reason only: the 'larger than life' character of Shatner's James T. Kirk.
As another example, my own opinion is that one of the chief reasons DS9 is so popular here at TrekBBS is because Sisko's legacy is so very strong. I mean, it doesn't get much stronger than commanding the troops that saved the Alpha Quadrant from conquest by the Dominion...and following that up by becoming a god.
These are larger than life characters...and IMO, ALL the captains should have been written that way. Janeway had an excellent start, which is why I came to love her so much. But the writers dropped the ball on her in the end, when they got distracted by writing story after story for characters they personally liked, for whatever reason, rather than for characters who were essential to the show's legacy.
And no...I don't give a shit that Mulgrew got X number of hours of screentime. If that screentime is spent merely as a mother figure in a Seven of Nine story, that is NOT Janeway time. That screentime is REALLY all about developing the Seven character and her legacy...not about developing the Janeway character and HER legacy.
And what I'm saying is that they dropped the ball on carrying through Janeway's development to the point where she too would be among the larger-than-life-who-could-do-no-wrong. Instead, when Nemesis came out, we got comments like "How'd SHE get to be an admiral???"
My feeling is that if the writers of VOY had done their jobs, that question would have never been asked. Because every fan who had ever watched the show would know exactly how she got to be an admiral.
While Sisko was kicking the Dominion's ass and attaining godhood in WYLB...and while Picard was taking on the Q Continuum and making the case for mankind....we have Janeway breaking the temporal prime directive, just to make her friends happy.
That is what I'm talking about. Janeway should have had a bigger legacy than getting 'em home and making her friends happy.
She DESERVED more than that. And Kate Mulgrew was certainly up to the task, so it certainly wasn't her fault.
I read many comments on this board expressing disbelief as to some fans' preference for the early seasons of VOY, as opposed to the later seasons full of snappy remarks by the EMH and Seven doing the Data thing.
Well, this is exactly why people like me prefer the early seasons. Because those were the seasons where Janeway was larger than life - where she was facing problems and peril on every side, within and without her own ship and crew...and was taking no crap from anyone. She had the big picture in perspective and was making decisions that would impact the entire crew's very survival. She was a hero in the making.
She was not spending her time cleaning up after the EMH's latest bout with unmitigated egotism or handholding Seven through her latest identity crisis.
If I had my pick of any Trek show that would get a movie, it would be VOY. And the chief reason is because if we could get some writers on the thing who could focus on the ball for 10 seconds, I believe that alot of the negative opinions about VOY out in fandom could be changed. Give us a kick-ass good, larger-than-life, Janeway-centric story with a minimum of angst from the usual suspects...and the whole impression could be easily turned around.
Just my two cents, for whatever that's worth.
I once read an interview that Robbie (Tom) gave that is posted on his website and you could tell from his answers to the questions that him and the rest of the cast members were very disgrutled with how Jeri Ryan and Seven got such a large amount of screen time compared to the other characters. He was saying something to the effect that it wasn't fair to the other characters and it had pretty much become a show about Seven, and not about anybody else.
I kind of agree with him as the last few seasons seemed to be focused far more on Seven than any of the other characters. Although, I do think B'Elanna's character got a good amount of attention and further development.
With regards to Tom's character I do think he was more domesticated but I don't necessarily think domestication and being wussified come hand in hand. It makes me think of the episode in Season 7 called "The Prophecy" where Tom defends B'Elanna's honor by fighting the Klingons. That's good 'ole Tommy boy!! And "Drive" where we see our dear Tom acting more like we remember in his first few seasons but while still being "domesticated"
I kind of agree with him as the last few seasons seemed to be focused far more on Seven than any of the other characters. Although, I do think B'Elanna's character got a good amount of attention and further development.
With regards to Tom's character I do think he was more domesticated but I don't necessarily think domestication and being wussified come hand in hand. It makes me think of the episode in Season 7 called "The Prophecy" where Tom defends B'Elanna's honor by fighting the Klingons. That's good 'ole Tommy boy!! And "Drive" where we see our dear Tom acting more like we remember in his first few seasons but while still being "domesticated"
^ Interesting. I'm really glad he did that. Good for him. For a long time, Beltran was the only one who was on record as being willing to stand up and complain. Alot of fans labeled him a whiner...but at the end of the day, he was right, IMO. And I have always admired him for saying what he really thought, instead of spouting the 'we are all very pleased' party line that everyone knew was bullshit, so looked ridiculous.
That is why I said what I said to him in Vegas - that I thought he was robbed. He took alot of heat back in the day...and I wanted him to be reminded that some of us out here in TVLand agreed with him...and were glad to see someone stand up for their principles.
They punished him, I believe, by making his parts even worse...they made him pay for his willingness to break ranks and speak up to the fans.
But some of us admire him precisely BECAUSE he was willing to pay the price for standing up for his convictions on the issue.
Nevertheless, it is good to hear that other VOY cast members agreed with him. I always liked RDM personally - he seems like a really level-headed fellow. So I'm quite glad he is one of the ones who has commented on this issue.
Thanks!
That is why I said what I said to him in Vegas - that I thought he was robbed. He took alot of heat back in the day...and I wanted him to be reminded that some of us out here in TVLand agreed with him...and were glad to see someone stand up for their principles.
They punished him, I believe, by making his parts even worse...they made him pay for his willingness to break ranks and speak up to the fans.
But some of us admire him precisely BECAUSE he was willing to pay the price for standing up for his convictions on the issue.
Nevertheless, it is good to hear that other VOY cast members agreed with him. I always liked RDM personally - he seems like a really level-headed fellow. So I'm quite glad he is one of the ones who has commented on this issue.
Thanks!
I think Robbie might agree with you on the whole issue of him losing his rebelliousness. I found a quote in one of his interviews where he said they dumped Tom's rebelliousness and didn't replace it with anything. So, it seems Robbie whole heartedly agrees with you
I am searching his interviews so I can post some stuff for you guys about how Robbie viewed aspects of the show. Good to see in season 6 he was very happy with the Tom/B'Elanna bit and said he wished they would do more episodes focused on them because he likes working with Roxann on screen and so do the fans
I like what he said in this interview called "Fly Boy" in July 2000 after completing the sixth season of filming. He's awesome
Sorry for triple posting but I found the interview where Robbie talks about his and the rest of the casts resentment over Jeri Ryan being added to the show and her character getting more screen time than the rest:
From an interview called "We'll Always Have Paris" From Mania Magazine on July 31st, 1998.
From an interview called "We'll Always Have Paris" From Mania Magazine on July 31st, 1998.
I think Robbie might agree with you on the whole issue of him losing his rebelliousness. I found a quote in one of his interviews where he said they dumped Tom's rebelliousness and didn't replace it with anything. So, it seems Robbie whole heartedly agrees with you
Actually, that doesn't surprise me. I always felt like he got a kick out of playing a 'bad boy'....which for me, was part of what made him so fun to watch. He did it so well, you see. It was a good idea to begin with, and it was very well executed by RDM, so I never really understood why they dialed that back. I mean, he still could have hooked up with B'Elanna, gotten married, and all that....but kept his 'edge'. He had a GREAT 'edge'.
Thanks very much! This is quite interesting! As I said, he seems to me like a nice and level headed fellow - I'd love to hear his take on the show! In truth, I've heard it from Kate's POV, from Beltran's POV, and from Picardo's POV...but never from RDM's.I am searching his interviews so I can post some stuff for you guys about how Robbie viewed aspects of the show. Good to see in season 6 he was very happy with the Tom/B'Elanna bit and said he wished they would do more episodes focused on them because he likes working with Roxann on screen and so do the fans
And I think the chemistry between RDM and Roxann was pretty evident - not only to them, but to us as well. I thought they worked very well together.
I know you and I haven't chatted much before now on this board, but I am pretty well-known for not being very much into Trek 'ships. Generally speaking, I think Trek writers are terrible at writing 'ships and don't do a very good job. One of my biggest gripes about DS9, for example, is Odo/Kira. I HATE that 'ship. I mean, I really, really hate it. I think it's downright creepy, in fact. But others seem to love it, so what are ya gonna do?
But VOY, for me, was the one exception when it came to the 'shipper thing. I really liked J/C, to be honest...and was pretty disappointed when they screwed that one up. I can't say as I was a quite as 'into' Tom/B'Elanna...but when it did happen, I liked it and thought they did a *great* job with it.
There are alot of shows which do 'ships better than anything in Trek - Babylon 5, Farscape, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Roswell are just a few examples. But as far as TREK 'ships go, Tom/B'Elanna probably was the most well written of all, between 2 regular cast members. I also liked Sisko/Kassidy, but she was not a regular cast member, so you can't really count that one.
As I said, I was into J/C...but they FUBAR'd that one up, so boo on them.
Thanks for posting this.
I agree with everything he said. I don't think what he hoped for - that they would more fairly redistribute the stories and the focus of the show - actually happened in the end. But of course, he wouldn't have known that during the interview - he was hoping for it himself!
But yeah - I thought what he said was very fair and reasonable. Both about the ratings issue and about the issue of Jeri Ryan.
I don't think any of them blamed Jeri Ryan for grabbing the show from them, and I don't either. But I think they were annoyed with TPTB. And rightly so, IMO.
Wow, some really excellent analysis has been going on the last day or so. Kudos to all who have posted.
This is what I've been saying for years although I think you've put it a bit more eloquently. While the other Trek shows had capatain's with clear legacies the focus of Voyager apparently is the legacy of Seven of Nine.
This is what I've been saying for years although I think you've put it a bit more eloquently. While the other Trek shows had capatain's with clear legacies the focus of Voyager apparently is the legacy of Seven of Nine.
Thanks guys, I am glad you all liked some of the interview stuff from Robbie that I posted. He always seemed like he really had his head on straight and always wished the best for the show. He had a good way of articulating his thoughts and some of the general opinions of the other cast members.
As far as ships go in Star Trek, I can't say they have always been the best and perhaps I can chalk that up to the fact that sci-fi writers are writing these romances and that is not their specialty. I do absolutely agree that with Tom/B'Elanna they did exceedingly well and, in my opinion, it was the strongest most well written relationship in Star Trek. Plus, we all got to see it develop from the beginning to end (marriage, children) by the end of season 7. That was nice
I remember in "Caretaker" and the few following episodes where Janeway was trying to figure out where she fit into the crew and how she could best serve them. She was saying that perhaps she needed to be "larger than life" to be their captain, take care of them, and lead them home. Yeah, they definately dropped that pretty quickly and I find that incredibly sad. There was so much potential for Janeway and it just was never realized.
They sacrificed some major characters for the sake of others, which in the end didn't prove to be such a good idea.
As far as ships go in Star Trek, I can't say they have always been the best and perhaps I can chalk that up to the fact that sci-fi writers are writing these romances and that is not their specialty. I do absolutely agree that with Tom/B'Elanna they did exceedingly well and, in my opinion, it was the strongest most well written relationship in Star Trek. Plus, we all got to see it develop from the beginning to end (marriage, children) by the end of season 7. That was nice
I remember in "Caretaker" and the few following episodes where Janeway was trying to figure out where she fit into the crew and how she could best serve them. She was saying that perhaps she needed to be "larger than life" to be their captain, take care of them, and lead them home. Yeah, they definately dropped that pretty quickly and I find that incredibly sad. There was so much potential for Janeway and it just was never realized.
They sacrificed some major characters for the sake of others, which in the end didn't prove to be such a good idea.
