Flesh and Blood and holograms

[KayArr]

Jammers Reviews gives this a high rating and an indepth review of all the character angles, etc. But this episode just doesn't move me at all.

Holograms become the victim of the law of diminishing returns--there are now just so many of them, that the doctor doesn't seem special anymore. It seems like anyone with a computer and a holodeck can just program an AI whenever they want.

A lot of people write about the defanging of the Borg--but I kind of like the arc of modern Trek from Q Who to Endgame. No matter how fearsome they started out, why not let the Federation figure out how to defeat them over the course of a generation (how far in the future was future Janeway again?)?

But I don't feel that way about holograms. I think that the holodecks might well be the worst thing about modern Trek--a worse crutch than technobabble or time travel. By the time Flesh and Blood rolls around, I just don't care anymore no matter how well-written the episode is. Don't get me started on the mobile emitter--how interesting might it have been to have the Doctor confined to sickbay for the whole journey? Or at least confined to the ship.

I'm getting to the point that I think I'll just skip holodeck episodes when watching dvds--not Doc episodes like Latent Image or Doc/Seven eps--but holodeck episodes in general.

What does everyone else think?

 

[exodus]

I find holodecks necessary on Starfleet ships. They're the equilvant of what Bob Hope tried to do for the troops with the USO. People are far away for home on Starships, so holodecks are entertainment to keep moral up. Like Bob Hope, they bring the party to the troops.

I thinnk "Flesh & Blood" is groundbreaking for the Doctor. I'm surprised at how many forget the EMH is programed with the Hippocratic Oath, which is the oath every doctor takes "too do no harm". The EMH is programmed not to hurt ANYBODY, good or evil. By turning his back on Voyager and his friends to stand up for a cause he believed in, shows that he is not longer a slave to his programming. He can fully think for himself now and override anything he was originally programmed for. He now has a complete sense of self as well as his actions.

That's why Janeway couldn't punish him. He reached the goal they allowed him to set out to become, fully adaptable and independant.

 

[The Borg Queen]

No matter how fearsome they started out, why not let the Federation figure out how to defeat them over the course of a generation (how far in the future was future Janeway again?)?

Around 25-30 years.

 

[Deks]

To be more accurate, Janeway's older self was from approximately 26 years into the future (measuring from the final season).
And yes I agree the Feds would be able to find some kind of definitive solutions in defeating the Borg within a period of at least 50 years.

I mean, SF began churning out anti-Borg technology/ships after almost immediately after Wolf359.
Granted that they were still 14 months away from implementing them at the time, but they do fall well in line with the new classes of ships that were designed and put into active duty (which happened well after 14 months).
The Sovereign, Intrepid and Defiant class ships were designs that began to be placed into service well after the 14 month period for releasing anti-Borg systems.
Also, we have to take into consideration other species the Feds would encounter, not to mention Picard and 7 who both possessed intricate knowledge of Borg technology.
So yes ... I think that devising weapons that can effectively destroy a Borg cube in one shot is a realistic goal for them ... particularly if the Borg are destroyed before being able to analyze the weapons used to destroy them.

As for holodecks...
Well, they were for the most part always a standard on Federation star ships in the 24th century.
Used primarily for relaxation of the crew and doing various research.
In regards to sentient holograms ... well you have to keep in mind that not every hologram will be sentient or achieve that frame of mind if it doesn't grow.
The Doctor remained for the most part one of the unique holograms because he was only the second one to achieve sentience (the first one was Moriarty).
The mobile emitter merely gave the doctor ability to move around the ship or go on away missions like everyone else.
Some of the holodeck episodes I saw were quite good in my opinion and enjoyable.

 

[Timo]

I think that devising weapons that can effectively destroy a Borg cube in one shot is a realistic goal for them ... particularly if the Borg are destroyed before being able to analyze the weapons used to destroy them.

The latter would seem to be a prerequisite for the former to work more than once, yeah. But by the same token, one would think many other Borg adversaries would have come up with ways to destroy single Cubes with one quick shot. Somehow, the Borg have survived that, so there would seem to be a backup of some sort. It might simply suffice to send several ships, so that at least one of them can send off a message, and then the next fleet can arrive with improved defenses.

It would be simple for the writers to keep the Borg as an overwhelmingly powerful enemy, given the basic premise. But an overwhelmingly menacing one? Their potential for scary evil has been milked rather dry, no matter what - we are already accustomed to the idea of space zombies, even though ST:FC made it graphically more gruesome than before, and VOY explored the psychological side in greater depth. That's not VOy writers' fault in particular, or the fault of the Borg concept. That's what happens to all villains in all drama, as familiarity breeds contempt.

As for holograms, I'm not in contempt of them quite yet. It helps that the EMH was such a well-written and well-acted character, one of the more interesting aboard the ship. His being a hologram was good for laughs till the very end of the seven years. Not sure if it would carry past that, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KayArr]

The end of Author, Author with Doc models working in a mine was beyond ridiculous--I hadn't seen that one when I started this thread. Heck, you could farm them out to frontier worlds who need Docs--they'd be valuable members of the community. They could join merchant fleets. I love the Doc and some Holodeck eps, but about 3/4 of them are now off my viewing rotation.

 

[exodus]

I think that devising weapons that can effectively destroy a Borg cube in one shot is a realistic goal for them ... particularly if the Borg are destroyed before being able to analyze the weapons used to destroy them.

The latter would seem to be a prerequisite for the former to work more than once, yeah. But by the same token, one would think many other Borg adversaries would have come up with ways to destroy single Cubes with one quick shot. Somehow, the Borg have survived that, so there would seem to be a backup of some sort. It might simply suffice to send several ships, so that at least one of them can send off a message, and then the next fleet can arrive with improved defenses.

But if the Borg are all one mind, they wouldn't need to send out a message, the Hive would already know. So in essence, the next Cube they send would already be adapting. That's the reason for the rotating frequency.


Anyway, that was just a side note....

"Flesh & Blood"

I just watched this again the other night, because I hadn't seen it in a while. I had forgotten how much I enjoyed it!! I loved the scene where the Doctor's being hunted by the Hirogen and he gets cornered by one. The Hirogen pulls a knife and slashes the Doctor, as he does a quick splash of blood hits the camera screen! I had forgotten how graphic they made that scene.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

One of the few occasions where Jammer and I disagree.

And that's all I'm sayin' about that.

 

[jimbtnp2]

Jammers Reviews gives this a high rating and an indepth review of all the character angles, etc. But this episode just doesn't move me at all.

Holograms become the victim of the law of diminishing returns--there are now just so many of them, that the doctor doesn't seem special anymore. It seems like anyone with a computer and a holodeck can just program an AI whenever they want.

A lot of people write about the defanging of the Borg--but I kind of like the arc of modern Trek from Q Who to Endgame. No matter how fearsome they started out, why not let the Federation figure out how to defeat them over the course of a generation (how far in the future was future Janeway again?)?

But I don't feel that way about holograms. I think that the holodecks might well be the worst thing about modern Trek--a worse crutch than technobabble or time travel. By the time Flesh and Blood rolls around, I just don't care anymore no matter how well-written the episode is. Don't get me started on the mobile emitter--how interesting might it have been to have the Doctor confined to sickbay for the whole journey? Or at least confined to the ship.

I'm getting to the point that I think I'll just skip holodeck episodes when watching dvds--not Doc episodes like Latent Image or Doc/Seven eps--but holodeck episodes in general.

What does everyone else think?

Other than S1-TNG they have been a disaster for good story telling and rank #2 to technobabble on the demise of Trek

 

[jimbtnp2]

To be more accurate, Janeway's older self was from approximately 26 years into the future (measuring from the final season).
And yes I agree the Feds would be able to find some kind of definitive solutions in defeating the Borg within a period of at least 50 years.

I mean, SF began churning out anti-Borg technology/ships after almost immediately after Wolf359.
Granted that they were still 14 months away from implementing them at the time, but they do fall well in line with the new classes of ships that were designed and put into active duty (which happened well after 14 months).
The Sovereign, Intrepid and Defiant class ships were designs that began to be placed into service well after the 14 month period for releasing anti-Borg systems.
Also, we have to take into consideration other species the Feds would encounter, not to mention Picard and 7 who both possessed intricate knowledge of Borg technology.
So yes ... I think that devising weapons that can effectively destroy a Borg cube in one shot is a realistic goal for them ... particularly if the Borg are destroyed before being able to analyze the weapons used to destroy them.

As for holodecks...
Well, they were for the most part always a standard on Federation star ships in the 24th century.
Used primarily for relaxation of the crew and doing various research.
In regards to sentient holograms ... well you have to keep in mind that not every hologram will be sentient or achieve that frame of mind if it doesn't grow.
The Doctor remained for the most part one of the unique holograms because he was only the second one to achieve sentience (the first one was Moriarty).
The mobile emitter merely gave the doctor ability to move around the ship or go on away missions like everyone else.
Some of the holodeck episodes I saw were quite good in my opinion and enjoyable.

clueless

 

[kimc]

To be more accurate, Janeway's older self was from approximately 26 years into the future (measuring from the final season).
And yes I agree the Feds would be able to find some kind of definitive solutions in defeating the Borg within a period of at least 50 years.

I mean, SF began churning out anti-Borg technology/ships after almost immediately after Wolf359.
Granted that they were still 14 months away from implementing them at the time, but they do fall well in line with the new classes of ships that were designed and put into active duty (which happened well after 14 months).
The Sovereign, Intrepid and Defiant class ships were designs that began to be placed into service well after the 14 month period for releasing anti-Borg systems.
Also, we have to take into consideration other species the Feds would encounter, not to mention Picard and 7 who both possessed intricate knowledge of Borg technology.
So yes ... I think that devising weapons that can effectively destroy a Borg cube in one shot is a realistic goal for them ... particularly if the Borg are destroyed before being able to analyze the weapons used to destroy them.

As for holodecks...
Well, they were for the most part always a standard on Federation star ships in the 24th century.
Used primarily for relaxation of the crew and doing various research.
In regards to sentient holograms ... well you have to keep in mind that not every hologram will be sentient or achieve that frame of mind if it doesn't grow.
The Doctor remained for the most part one of the unique holograms because he was only the second one to achieve sentience (the first one was Moriarty).
The mobile emitter merely gave the doctor ability to move around the ship or go on away missions like everyone else.
Some of the holodeck episodes I saw were quite good in my opinion and enjoyable.

clueless

I certainly hope you're referring to yourself as clueless and not the other poster...

 

[GrowlingDog]

The Doctor, Aaaargh. While i love the acting of Robert Picardo, after recently watching over Voyager from season 3 to 7, i found the Doctor and Janeway's interaction with him to be increasingly annoying. By the time i got to Renaissance Man (S7), i actually used the fast forward button. Again and again the Doctor disobeyed orders or became a danger to the Voyager crew and if he was human he would have been punished and probably even been given counselling to get his character in check. However, even though it would be a simple matter for Janeway to have his sub-routine's re-programmed so that he tows the line, her idea of punishment and fixing things so that they never happen again is to take away his mobile emitter privileges for a week (which turned out to be nothing as the Doctor was sulking in sick bay for a week). the Doctor had some serious flaws in his character in regard to the safety of the Voyager crew, yet nothing was done to change them. In fact, Janeway seemed to think it was good that he struggle with his "feelings".
When Paris broke the law, he was demoted and sent to the brig for 30 days. If you were Paris, how pissed off would you be with the very light response that Janeway seemed to have for any of the Doctors indiscretions?
At the very least she could have had another programme made up to at least compare it the old "become whatever you want EMH".
I believe in some distorted way the writers were trying get me to emphasize or at least find a parrellel to the Doctors struggle for his rights, to that of some humans on earth today but all it did was annoy the hell out of me to the point that all i wanted was for the Doctor to be scrambled down to a calculator.

 

[exodus]

The Doctor, Aaaargh. While i love the acting of Robert Picardo, after recently watching over Voyager from season 3 to 7, i found the Doctor and Janeway's interaction with him to be increasingly annoying. By the time i got to Renaissance Man (S7), i actually used the fast forward button. Again and again the Doctor disobeyed orders or became a danger to the Voyager crew and if he was human he would have been punished and probably even been given counselling to get his character in check. However, even though it would be a simple matter for Janeway to have his sub-routine's re-programmed so that he tows the line, her idea of punishment and fixing things so that they never happen again is to take away his mobile emitter privileges for a week (which turned out to be nothing as the Doctor was sulking in sick bay for a week). the Doctor had some serious flaws in his character in regard to the safety of the Voyager crew, yet nothing was done to change them. In fact, Janeway seemed to think it was good that he struggle with his "feelings".
When Paris broke the law, he was demoted and sent to the brig for 30 days. If you were Paris, how pissed off would you be with the very light response that Janeway seemed to have for any of the Doctors indiscretions?
At the very least she could have had another programme made up to at least compare it the old "become whatever you want EMH".
I believe in some distorted way the writers were trying get me to emphasize or at least find a parrellel to the Doctors struggle for his rights, to that of some humans on earth today but all it did was annoy the hell out of me to the point that all i wanted was for the Doctor to be scrambled down to a calculator.

The Doctor is a program that contains the "Hippocratic Oath". It's a oath all Doctor's take to "do no harm". The Doctor is programmed not to harm anybody for any reason. The fact that he put his crew in danger, shows that he broke that part of his programming and is possably sentient. If so, he is the first of his kind and partically a new lifeform.

 

[GrowlingDog]

Yes but just because you have shown that you are sentient and possible a new life form doesn't mean you should not be punished or fixed to prevent you from doing it again. After all if he was a human doctor, he would be seriously punished, possibly even court martialed.

 

[exodus]

Yes but just because you have shown that you are sentient and possible a new life form doesn't mean you should not be punished or fixed to prevent you from doing it again. After all if he was a human doctor, he would be seriously punished, possibly even court martialed.

That's also the point, he isn't human. In the ep. "Author, Author" the continuing argument is: "is the Doctor even considered real". Is something not considered real punishable under the laws that govern beings that are flesh & blood.

How do you punish a video game?

 

[GrowlingDog]

You re-program it

 

[exodus]

You re-program it

Not if you can prove sentience.


The argument is a circular one. If you can prove the Doc. is sentient, then he has rights but can you also prove that he is real and if those rights still apply.

Nobody still knows, the Doc. is a brand new "life form" and no laws as of yet apply to beings like him. He's more than just a computer program now but still less than flesh & blood.

The question is: what is the Doctor?

 

[GrowlingDog]

My point is if a soldier in the armed forces had a character flaw that could endanger his fellow soldiers, he would be removed from service until he could be counseled or helped in such a matter that he was not a danger or a risk. With the doctor, it seems that because it's such an amazing thing that he may be sentient, the flaws in his character and the danger that he may hold to the crew of Voyager seem to be ignored in favor of him "finding" himself. Would this be allowed to happen with a human in any military command structure?

 

[exodus]

My point is if a soldier in the armed forces had a character flaw that could endanger his fellow soldiers, he would be removed from service until he could be counseled or helped in such a matter that he was not a danger or a risk. With the doctor, it seems that because it's such an amazing thing that he may be sentient, the flaws in his character and the danger that he may hold to the crew of Voyager seem to be ignored in favor of him "finding" himself. Would this be allowed to happen with a human in any military command structure?

Once again, the Doctor isn't human nor is he a being of flesh.

He doesn't even have rights under the Constitution or Federation law.
He's seen as no different than Barney.
You can't apply the law to something that isn't considered real.

 

[kimc]

Yes but just because you have shown that you are sentient and possible a new life form doesn't mean you should not be punished or fixed to prevent you from doing it again. After all if he was a human doctor, he would be seriously punished, possibly even court martialed.

All the more reason he should have been punished, imo. Sentience implies free will and someone with free will can be held accountable for their decisions and actions - new life form or not.

Now if the Doctor did not have sentience/free will you could just reprogram him to not do it again. Problem solved. Since that is not an option then he must face the consequences of his actions.