Spock and Pike and WNMHGB

[Wingsley]

In "The Menagerie, Part 1", Kirk says he first met Pike "when he was promoted to Fleet Captain." Kirk also said he "took over command of the Enterprise from him."

Spock says he served under Captain Pike for "11 years, 4 months and 5 days".

When Spock introduces the Talosian historical "movie" during his court-martial, he says "this is 13 years ago."

Since "The Menagerie" takes place in the first year of TOS, this leaves some questions. If Spock served under Pike for less than 12 years, and "this is 13 years ago", and TOS is in its first year at the time, does this reveal anything about the succession of events over those 13 years? And who commanded the Enterprise, when?

Let's assume, for sake of argument, that Spock highjacked the Enterprise in 2266. That would mean that Pike first took the Enterprise to Talos IV in 2253 or thereabouts. If Spock had just been assigned to serve aboard the Enterprise in 2253, shortly before their Talos diversion, then he and Pike served together from 2253 to 2264 or '65.

Since the Enterprise interior looks and sounds significantly different in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as opposed to the rest of the series, is it not reasonable to conclude the following?

1: Approx. 2253: Spock first assumes his science post aboard the Enterprise, under Captain Pike. Shortly thereafter, Pike diverts the Enterprise to Talos.

2: Pike and Spock served together for 11+ years aboard the Enterprise, right up until Kirk relieved Pike, in 2265.

3: Shortly thereafter, Kirk captained the Enterprise in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", again, sometime in 2265. The ship sustained significant damage, and, after returning from Delta Vega, received a thorough refit.

4: After the refit, Kirk took the Enterprise on the rest of her "five-year mission", presumably in 2266.

5: Spock highjacks the Enterprise at Starbase 11, bound for Talos. It is 2266, 13 years after the first diversion. This would also mean that it is about 20 months after Kirk relieved Pike. In turn, this would imply that the Enterprise returned from Delta Vega within those 20 months to be refit.

Forget the dates. They are simply a point of reference here. The only way this chain of events could be any different would be if Kirk was only temporarly in command during WNMHGB, and that Pike subsequently relinquished formal command later, and then the chain of events could be moved around somewhat. Since that does not make sense, the above chain of events would have to be the case.

The strange thing is that during WNMHGB, Kirk and Dehener speak as if Kirk, Spock and Mitchell had all three been together for years. Does this mean all three served under Pike's command?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or that "Where No Has Gone Before" takes place two years into the 5-year mission.

Or that Kirk commanded the Enterprise a few years before the 5-year mission began.

 

[Wingsley]

I see what you're getting at.

Pike and Spock could have been transferred to another ship, and served together there. Kirk could have served temporarily on the Enterprise, and perhaps handed it off to someone else before coming back to take permanent command just before WNMHGB.

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

Spock says he served under Captain Pike for "11 years, 4 months and 5 days".

Spock needn't necesarily have been on the Enterprise when Pike relinquished command. Maybe he was transfered somewhere else for a few years and then was transferred back when ( or after ) Kirk took over?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I see what you're getting at.

Pike and Spock could have been transferred to another ship, and served together there. Kirk could have served temporarily on the Enterprise, and perhaps handed it off to someone else before coming back to take permanent command just before WNMHGB.

You can simplify it even more than that.

We really don't know--at least until the new movie--where WNMHGB takes place within the 5-year mission or even if it actually takes place during the 5-year mission. All we have to go on is that 13 years prior to "The Menagerie," Spock served with Pike for about 11 years. That really gives us two unaccounted years in which Kirk could have commanded the Enterprise with Spock and Mitchell. The 5-year mission could have started after WNMHGB. That would explain the change in uniforms/rank insignia, the slight changes to the ship's exterior and interior, as well as why the opening monologue about the 5-year mission really first appeared with "The Corbomite Maneuver."

 

[Ronald Held]

How long between Pike's promotion, the Enterprise being refit and Kirk's first mission aboard her?

 

[Sector 7]

Guys like you are gonna freak out if JJ Abrams destroys all these theories in Star Trek XI.
The dates are just not as important, IMO, as the STORY telling.
In The Cage, Spock is from Mars and very emotional, I'm still waiting for THAT explanation.
Regarding Where No Man Has Gone Before, I actually LIKED the episode. But I don't think it should be over analyzed.

 

[Warped9]

Or that Kirk commanded the Enterprise a few years before the 5-year mission began.

I think this is the more likely scenario. And it's backed up in the TOS Writer's Guide in Kirk's biography where it says he's commanded the Enterprise for "about four years," and TMoST was published after TOS' second season. So I'd say Kirk had the E for about two years before the 5-year mission and that WNMHGB happens before the ship's refit and the familiar 5-year mission.

Guys like you are gonna freak out if JJ Abrams destroys all these theories in Star Trek XI.

No. not in the least because Trek XI has ZERO to do with TOS other than some familiar names and references. Trek XI is, after all, a restart.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Guys like you are gonna freak out if JJ Abrams destroys all these theories in Star Trek XI.

No. not in the least because Trek XI has ZERO to do with TOS other than some familiar names and references. Trek XI is, after all, a restart.

Agreed, at least in the sense that it's not going to be some massive, earth-shattering hysteria among Trek fans if the movie changes some dates around.

Sure, there'll be some very vocal objections--and that's what internet message boards are for--but the majority of Trek fans or "guys like us" aren't going to "freak out."

I think Trek fans think worse of Trek fans far more than the general public does...

 

[Kagan]

In This Side of Paradise, Spock admits that he was on Earth when he met Leila Kalomi on Earth. He was either there on furlough, assignment, or additional study at Star Fleet Academy. I'm not with my DVDs right now or I would go back to that episode.

 

[FalTorPan]

Or that Kirk commanded the Enterprise a few years before the 5-year mission began.

I tend to be of the opinion that "Where No Man Has Gone Before" preceded the five-year mission. If not, then a good amount of the five-year mission would have been spent with the Enterprise being overhauled from WNMHGB configuration to that seen during the rest of the series. While that is a possible scenario, it isn't as exciting for a ship whose exploits were supposedly so legendary.

On the other hand, in ST:TMP Kirk describes his experience as "five years out there." This would seem to suggest that if Kirk did captain the Enterprise prior to the onset of the five-year mission, then it must have been fairly soon before the onset of that mission.

 

[SeerSGB]

Or Kirk's first 2 to 4 years of command was mostly local patrols within known territory or some other event that kept the Enterprise within explored space.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or that Kirk commanded the Enterprise a few years before the 5-year mission began.

I tend to be of the opinion that "Where No Man Has Gone Before" preceded the five-year mission. If not, then a good amount of the five-year mission would have been spent with the Enterprise being overhauled from WNMHGB configuration to that seen during the rest of the series. While that is a possible scenario, it isn't as exciting for a ship whose exploits were supposedly so legendary.

On the other hand, in ST:TMP Kirk describes his experience as "five years out there." This would seem to suggest that if Kirk did captain the Enterprise prior to the onset of the five-year mission, then it must have been fairly soon before the onset of that mission.

That could work. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" could be placed anywhere from a year to as little as only a few weeks before the 5-year mission under that scenario...

 

[Red Ranger]

People:

There is a much simpler explanation for the times Pike and Kirk were in command that allows for the five-year mission.

Kirk relieves Pike and there is a scheduled refit time of nearly a year, kind of like how Decker was given command by TMP but worked on the refit. Kirk works on a first refit but it's maybe half-way done over the course of six months. That would explain the similar outfits and equipment.

Then, Starfleet Command decides the other upgrades can wait and cuts orders for Enterprise, which then does the first year of the 5-year mission. After WNMHGB, the ship needs to be overhauled again, primarily because of the damage it sustained during WNMHGB, and there are new advances in all starship systems that Starfleet engineers have completed during the first year of that mission. The ship spends another few months in drydock, and gets additional upgrades as the crew also gets new uniforms. Then the rest of the five-year mission resumes.

See? No need to come up with too many convoluted explanations. All the above fits into what we've seen onscreen -- refits take time, uniforms change during refits, captains are given command during refits, and there has been more than one refit Enterprise has experienced throughout its service life.

Red Ranger

 

[Wonderlust King]

dude seriously, its a tv it has its flaws, you are beating the life out of it.

 

[Red Ranger]

dude seriously, its a tv it has its flaws, you are beating the life out of it.

Rio:

Let's face it -- we're all into mental masturbation on this board. We're ST wankers!

Red Ranger

 

[STIntergalactic]

Guys like you are gonna freak out if JJ Abrams destroys all these theories in Star Trek XI.
The dates are just not as important, IMO, as the STORY telling.

Story telling is clearly the third most important thing. Number two being SFX. And the most important thing is maintaining absolute consistency in a fictional universe.