The City on the Edge of Forever

[The Squire of Gothos]

While browsing this thread, I had a browse again through Sir Rhosis' script reviews.

I've never had a look over any of the furore around the episode and Harlan Ellison's opinions, other than that if I were to meet him and congratulate him on the episode, I should forgive him for throttling me

I was wondering though, given that there was almost eleven months between his first draft and the broadcast episode, how much of an idea was he given about Star Trek? Ignore the death penalty for drug dealing, how was he to know it was only handed out for visiting Talos IV. In our future we're supposed to be over all our little flaws, but the idea of addicting entire planets to drugs for power is beyond even a Starfleet Admiral The end for the criminal was a bit savage too.

I'm glad to hear that Ellison didn't like the pirates that have replaced the crew of the Enterprise, that really didn't sit well with me. But I liked the idea of the rabble chasing Kirk and Spock and the two of them reflecting on Earth's past. And even in the early script there's almost a typical Spock moment, asking why trucks were prohibited.

The guardian beings are a so-so idea now that I've seen the doughnut of time on screen, but I like their clue and how it leads Spock to Keeler without the tricorder.

And the end of the minor character "Trooper", which was referenced I'm guessing with the dead bum fiddling with McCoy's phaser was something I'd like to have seen. He was only a minor character, but it was interesting to hear about how his death was inconsequential to the universe at large, with Kirk and Spock physically unaffected by it. Something the redshirts would be all too familiar with! It also made a nice counterbalance to the death of Keeler as noted at the end of the episode.

 

[Therin of Andor]

how much of an idea was he given about Star Trek? Ignore the death penalty for drug dealing, how was he to know it was only handed out for visiting Talos IV.

Ellison had a Writers' Guide like everyone else. It's not as if Roddenberry spelled out the full history of the UFP; they were making it up as they went along. Things would come up in the spec and commissioned scripts and GR would either approve them, ask for modifications, change them himself, or quash them. Depending on how GR felt they fit with his "vision".

IIRC, Ellison spent quite a bit of time on the lot, mostly in a tiny office, typing. But he was one of many in a brains trust of SF authors GR tapped in the beginning.

 

[Maurice]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I've read Ellison's scripot a few times and I'm convinced it could have been made workable without the wholesale rewrite done to it. And I can even see how Kirk's motivation could have been tweaked to keep to Ellison's story, but without violating the character of Kirk that had been established up to that point. And, sorry, but given the number of Starfleet crackpots from Kirk's past that showed up on the series, it's silly to say the drug plot wasn't consistent with the portrayal of Starfleet.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Firstly, the SPFX to do the row of Guardians - and the city - was way over projected budget, hence the reduction to a stone donut and ruined columns.

And I can even see how Kirk's motivation could have been tweaked to keep to Ellison's story, but without violating the character of Kirk that had been established up to that point.

Wasn't part of the problem that Kirk was too much of a changed man at the end of Ellison's original script? In the 60s, it was highly irregular that a character underwent such major change and have to front up again, but still a changed man, the next week.

given the number of Starfleet crackpots from Kirk's past that showed up on the series, it's silly to say the drug plot wasn't consistent with the portrayal of Starfleet.

Roddenberry didn't want a drug dependent member of Kirk's crew using his influence to undermine the ship's normal operations. We'd seen crewpeople tending towards bigotry, revenge, mutiny and cowardice, sure, but not a crewman undertaking such manipulation. In Spock's words, Beckwith was "amoral, evil, a killer. Selfish and capable of anything."

 

[Maurice]

^ Firstly, the SPFX to do the row of Guardians - and the city - was way over projected budget, hence the reduction to a stone donut and ruined columns.

...we see, for the first time, THE GUARDIANS OF FOREVER...who, for that beat, had looked almost like part of the stone walls. But...we see they are men. But such men as have never before been seen:

The instant impression is age. Old, terribly old, as old as time itself, as old as the dying sun overhead. Nine feet tall, silver-gray in tone, shapeless beneath the long white robes that reach to the mist-laden ground. They seem incredibly tall, not merely because they are a *motionless* nine feet in height, but because of their hair which rises up like mitered headpieces, because of the beards that hang down from their silent and ancient faces. Though only their heads show, they seem almost religious in tone; there is a vast dignity; an immense holiness about them. They do not move *ever*, and for a beat we suspect they may be stone.

The City...they never entered it in the script. They found the Guardians below it on a defile. It could have been done like Stratos...only a model (shhh). But one possible budget hit, sure.

As to the Guardians, as you can see from the quote above, no SFX required. They were not stone...but the impression of stone. Essentially, Ellison is describing men standing on something to make them tall, wearing shapeless robes; aged faces, tall hair and beards. Cheap. And only one of them ever speaks, so it's not like it's a bunch of actors. His note about the time vortex is downright frugal: "Construct it as you choose."

And I can even see how Kirk's motivation could have been tweaked to keep to Ellison's story, but without violating the character of Kirk that had been established up to that point.

Wasn't part of the problem that Kirk was too much of a changed man at the end of Ellison's original script? In the 60s, it was highly irregular that a character underwent such major change and have to front up again, but still a changed man, the next week.

Oh I agree. The character as written isn't consistent with the Kirk we'd come to know through the aired episodes. Ellison's Kirk was paralyzed with the indecision...the Kirk we knew would have tried to save Edith and the future...try to find some way he could save Edith's life but prevent her from changing things. It would have been facing the Kobayashi Maru type drama 15 years earlier than TWOK.

given the number of Starfleet crackpots from Kirk's past that showed up on the series, it's silly to say the drug plot wasn't consistent with the portrayal of Starfleet.

Roddenberry didn't want a drug dependent member of Kirk's crew using his influence to undermine the ship's normal operations. We'd seen crewpeople tending towards bigotry, revenge, mutiny and cowardice, sure, but not a crewman undertaking such manipulation. In Spock's words, Beckwith was "amoral, evil, a killer. Selfish and capable of anything."

A good point. However, Beckwith could have been anyone: a specialist brought on board, or a passenger.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I've read Ellison's scripot a few times and I'm convinced it could have been made workable without the wholesale rewrite done to it. And I can even see how Kirk's motivation could have been tweaked to keep to Ellison's story, but without violating the character of Kirk that had been established up to that point. And, sorry, but given the number of Starfleet crackpots from Kirk's past that showed up on the series, it's silly to say the drug plot wasn't consistent with the portrayal of Starfleet.

I totally disgree. I have read Ellisons book version and it would have been inferior. It would have gutted the whole ending of that episode. Kirk, willing to sacrafice his only true love, to save the time line is FAR more dramatic than Spock having to do it. I guess those who are hopeless romantics just see it best the way it was filmed..

I am not a big fan of Roddenberry's writing, but this time he got it right..IMO.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Maurice]

I totally disgree. I have read Ellisons book version and it would have been inferior. It would have gutted the whole ending of that episode. Kirk, willing to sacrafice his only true love, to save the time line is FAR more dramatic than Spock having to do it. I guess those who are hopeless romantics just see it best the way it was filmed..

I am not a big fan of Roddenberry's writing, but this time he got it right..IMO.

Rob
Scorpio

Except that I'm not defending the ending as written in Ellison's script vis a vis Kirk. As in a subsequent post, Kirk in the script was not consistent with the character as aired, but that it could have been fixed. So we're not in disagreement on that point.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Essentially, Ellison is describing men standing on something to make them tall, wearing shapeless robes; aged faces, tall hair and beards. Cheap.

Not cheap at all. In the 60s, it was hard to film people being immobile, like stone, for extended scenes. As noted in comments in the book about budget. Had the script been ready earlier, maybe they could have been extravagant but there were so many delays the budget was tighter than ever.

However, Beckwith could have been anyone: a specialist brought on board, or a passenger.

But he wasn't. That was Ellison's point. The production team had to fight hard to make it McCoy instead, and accidentally drugged.

You were saying the episode could have been filmed as is, but already you've found several things to change. You'd have received Ellison's ire, just like everyone else did.

 

[Maurice]

Sorry, Therin, but that's balogna. It's not hard to make people immovable. Or did you forget about Wink of an Eye?

I'm not quite following you about "Ellison's point" as relating to Beckwith being a Starfleet officer. Please elluciate.

The production team didn't have to fight for anything. They just had to endure Ellison's ire. As Fontana says in the book of "City", at first they showed the drafts to Harlan and tried to be respectful...eventually Roddenberry just did his thing to it.

Finally, I didn't say the episode could be used as written. I said it could be done "without the wholesale rewrite" done to it (for instance, the First Guardian's clue about what must die to restore the future was a far more dramatic device than the stone knives and bearskins tricorder...AND cheaper than the optical effects that required).

 

[Tralah]

I just wish that terrible dialogue that Edith spouted out about traveling in spaceships had been changed to something a bit more plausible for a woman in the 1940s to be rambling on about to the downtrodden. I don't blame Ellison for being mad about that part. The rest of the changes to the script weren't that bad and some made it superior in some ways in my opinion.

I do remember laughing when I read my copy of the script and Ellison wrote a note about the clothes Kirk and Spock steal in order to blend in. He said something along the lines of, "Please don't have them find clothes that fit them perfectly. That's so cliche and overdone". Then of course what happens? The clothes fit Kirk and Spock perfectly!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Sorry, Therin, but that's balogna.

I've read Ellison's book and I'm not going to pick a fight. He would not have been happy with mere immobile actors made to look tall via a camera angle.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I have to say I would have preferred having a character like Ellison's Beckwith in the episode. Roddenberry wasn't shy in TOS about showing flawed human beings & I really don't get why having one of the Enterprise crew be flawed is any different than having a Star Ship commander, surely the "best of the best" be flawed (Captain Tracy, Garth of Izar). Besides, there didn't seem to be a problem with an Enterprise crewman trying to frame Kirk for murder.

 

[Forbin]

They could have been immobilized by strapping them to the set with a harness and dressing them over it.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

I really don't get why having one of the Enterprise crew be flawed is any different than having a Star Ship commander, surely the "best of the best" be flawed (Captain Tracy, Garth of Izar)

They were mad or, in the case of Tracy, trying to effect some sort of greater good. This Beckwith character is just calculating for personal profit.

 

[erastus25]

Except that I'm not defending the ending as written in Ellison's script vis a vis Kirk. As in a subsequent post, Kirk in the script was not consistent with the character as aired, but that it could have been fixed. So we're not in disagreement on that point.

How could it have been fixed? It loses all the emotional punch if Kirk finds a way to save here and the universe.

I have to say I would have preferred having a character like Ellison's Beckwith in the episode. Roddenberry wasn't shy in TOS about showing flawed human beings & I really don't get why having one of the Enterprise crew be flawed is any different than having a Star Ship commander, surely the "best of the best" be flawed (Captain Tracy, Garth of Izar). Besides, there didn't seem to be a problem with an Enterprise crewman trying to frame Kirk for murder.

I think the problem was with the drug use, not with having a flawed character. Although that doesn't make a lot of sense either because he depicted drug use in Mudd's Women. Regardless, I liked that it was McCoy. The scenes of him in 1930s San Fran with Edith are very poignant and great moments for the character. Plus the joy of reunion with Spock and Kirk immediately followed by sorrow of Edith's death are especially touching. The scene makes real the intermixed joy and triumph that are the human condition. And the idea of Spock and Kirk looking for their lost friend is much more touching than Spock and Kirk looking for intergalactic drug dealer. All in all, Ellison's script is excellent, but the episode is better as produced.

 

[Maurice]

Sorry, Therin, but that's balogna.

I've read Ellison's book and I'm not going to pick a fight. He would not have been happy with mere immobile actors made to look tall via a camera angle.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I am quoting Ellison's own descriptions of the Guardians in the script, which distills down to: terribly old, tall, in shapeless robes, tall mitred hair and long beards, immobile except for their faces.

Except that I'm not defending the ending as written in Ellison's script vis a vis Kirk. As in a subsequent post, Kirk in the script was not consistent with the character as aired, but that it could have been fixed. So we're not in disagreement on that point.

How could it have been fixed? It loses all the emotional punch if Kirk finds a way to save her and the universe.

You misunderstand...I didn't say he'd succeed...he'd try to beat the no-win scenario and fail...which is in character. He can't save both, but that's not going to stop him from trying. In Ellison's script, he's like a deer in the headlights...he can't face what has to happen...he can't act. That's what's out of character.

Think of it this way, you know she's going to affect the future, so you think, what if I take her away, off to the mountains, away from her destiny, thus she can't be a player...but then come to the horrible realization that you don't know how THAT will change the future. You also realize that even if you could save her and the future, you sacrifice poor loyal Spock's life because he'd be stuck on 20th century Earth and God knows what would happen if the truth about him was uncovered. It's a Catch 22 to end all Catch 22s.

 

[ToddPence]

I think the problem was with the drug use, not with having a flawed character.

Actually, issues of drug use/flawed Enterprise personnel aside, I believe the real reason Beckwith didn't survive to the final draft is far more prosiac: he was simply an extraneous character. Any decent story editor would have gotten rid of him.

That said, I'd always envisioned Beckwith as being portrayed by Robert Duvall. (Hey, Duvall did Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Time Tunnel, why not Star Trek?

 

[Sir Rhosis]

I've always envisioned Dennis Hopper as Beckwith.

Sir Rhosis

 

[Maurice]

Actually, issues of drug use/flawed Enterprise personnel aside, I believe the real reason Beckwith didn't survive to the final draft is far more prosiac: he was simply an extraneous character. Any decent story editor would have gotten rid of him.

Unless you're actually trying to make a point about human nature which requires someone evil so you can comment on human nature and how even the worst of us can do selfless things. That's something you can't do with a series regular.

 

[Kail]

Ellison's script wouldn't have worked. I mean, he had Scotty dealing drugs!

(Please don't kill me)