I don't get it.

[Mrs Paris]

Sorry that I have to disagree here but, to quote our old friend Tom Paris, "the best way to say it is to say it!"

"Fury" was crap! Utterly crap! An episode with no sense whatsoever. I'm still surprised that a "writer" can come up with such rubbish.

I'm not buying any of the "reasons" for the behavior of the pathetic creature who was supposed to be Kes. There was no reason at all for the real Kes to hate the Voyager crew. Why should she hate people who have helped her, who had risked their lives for her and who she had risked her life for too? It doesn't make sense.

And I don't buy the theories about Kes's "dark sides" either. She had proved many times, both in "Persistence Of Vision", "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" that she could ovecome evil forces and evil temptations. If there was anyone on that ship who could withstand evilf forces, then it was Kes.

The whole story is so full of flaws and downright stupidities that I still can't understand that a respected TV and movie company could allowed such crap to be produced. They should have put the script for the episode in a trashcan together with the "writer" who wrote it.

I see no reason at all for making such an episode. It was only annoying and insulting and didn't have any purpose for the Voyager story.

"Fury" was nothing but downright character destruction and as a fan of the character, I hate to see my favorite character being destroyed. It did take all fun out of Voyager and damaged my interest for Star Trek too.

But I guess that one have to be a fan of the character to be p***ed off by such an insulting episode and not find it "entertaining".

I hate "Fury" and those who came up with the idea for the episode.

yes, we know you hate it, but you have to understand that this is a public forum and there will be people who have different opinions. Some people like this episode and would like to calmy discussing it without you insulting everyone and everything

can you just accept that people have different opinions?

 

[exodus]

Just let it go.

 

[Mrs Paris]

yeah, I guess it's impossible to have an actual DISCUSSION

 

[exodus]

yeah, I guess it's impossible to have an actual DISCUSSION

We don't seem to be doing so bad.

 

[Lynx]

Just let it go.

Well, I just had to express my feelings about that episode. Now it's done.

 

[Mrs Paris]

And had Neelix be like her adopted father or something

God, yes. Or maybe Kes could have reminded him of a little sister, just so long as it isn't sexual. Thinking about that couple in bed together always creeped me out. That's probably why Elogium is one of my least favorite episodes.

BTW, since we're talking about Kes, am I the only one who liked Fury and thought it added to the character? I thought there were too many loose threads (what drove Kes mad? what happened after she left Voyager as an old woman?), but it was generally good. Seeing her capacity for revenge (even if it was mostly insanity-driven) was satisfying after seeing her be sweet and innocent for so long. Now that I think about it, it fits with the slightly evil disposition of Ocampans who lived in that space station.

to answer your question. yes, I liked the episode. There were scenes in it that were incredible visualy such as Kes storming down the corridor with all the bulkheads blowing up behind her. And the Tuvok candle scene was funny, and the part with Naomi was realy cute. Plus I just love time travel episodes.

As far as why she was angry there could be any number of explinations. One could simply be that her mind was starting to deteriorate with her advanced age as we saw it in Before and After. Or it could be that she was just unprepared for her transformation. In Cold Fire we saw that her developing powers frightened her and she didn't want to use them. But then she was sent off without anyone to help her or teach her how to use them properly.

But I did love how at the end she was back to her sweet self, and wanted to go help her own people

 

[exodus]

Neelix who had many life experances was fasinated by the replicator and transporter the first time he saw/used him. Kes, who's never seen anything other than her underground world was never once in awe or curious about anything on the ship. She wasn't even surprised by a man popping out of thin air.(The EMH)

I'm referring to this post of yours. Kes didn't need to be in awe of Voyager's advanced technology. She came from a fairly advanced society herself and seemed to have a firm grasp on technology. Plus she was naturally curious about things.

Don't take me so literally exodus. Damn...

Sorry.

This is what you get for not having a site with a working replicator that serves alcohol.

 

[Lynx]

The creature we saw in "Fury" had no resemblance at all to the real Kes.

The real Kes was a brave, curious character who wanted to learn and explore, not an insane monster or some pathetic wreck who wanted to crawl back to that dreadful planet and die there.

Portraying Kes as such a ridiculous character is nothing but character destruction and an insult to her fans. It would be like portraying Kirk as a spineless, wimpy idiot, Picard as a drunken fool who have become an alcoholic because of what happened to his relatives or Riker as a paranoiac who tries to kill those he assume are a threat to his position as first officer.

Imagine if some excuse for a writer would come up with something like that. What a storm it would cause among the fans of those characters!

 

[Malcom]

Then why would you spend time on a board discussing a show you don't like featuring characters you find annoying?

 

[Lynx]

Then why would you spend time on a board discussing a show you don't like featuring characters you find annoying?

I think you have misunderstood me here. I like Voyager and I think that the characters are the best of all Star Trek series.

As for the comments about Kirk, Picard and Riker, I just wanted to point out how absurd it would be if someone destroyed the characters in the same way that Kes was destroyed and that the fans would never accept something like that.

What I'm criticizing is the unnecessary character destruction in "Fury", not Voyager and not Star Trek.

 

[Mrs Paris]

how was the character destroyed? She was angry, but then at the end she was back to her old self. Except aged a few years

 

[Kio]

Wow, people, I've only seen such strong opinions about Kirk, but it's kinda nice to see it with a Voyager character.

The real Kes was a brave, curious character who wanted to learn and explore, not an insane monster or some pathetic wreck who wanted to crawl back to that dreadful planet and die there.

If I saw that in Fury, I'd hate that episode, too. But I didn't think she looked pathetic, she came across as powerful to me. Bitter as all hell, but stronger and more accomplished than ever. I assumed something went seriously wrong with Kes to drive her to insanity. Plus, with Kes back at her planet, the rest of the Ocampans might learn from her and have a shot at long term survival after their energy supply runs dry. We also got that perfect goodbye scene with Neelix.

I guess it's just a matter of taste, but the potential for evil in an inherently good character really does it for me. I wish we'd seen more of that with Kim.

...Picard as a drunken fool who have become an alcoholic because of what happened to his relatives...

They pretty much destroyed Picard for me with Insurrection. This was the movie where he went to battle for the space hippy squatters who didn't feel like sharing the healthy radiation on their planet. By the end of that movie, I just wanted EVERYONE to die, but I still see what you're saying.

 

[kimc]

Then why would you spend time on a board discussing a show you don't like featuring characters you find annoying?

An opinion is an opinion and everyone is entitled to one - just as long as things don't turn personal.

 

[teya]

I guess it's just a matter of taste, but the potential for evil in an inherently good character really does it for me.

Me, too.

Of course, this is an area where Lynx and I have agreed to disagree.

 

[Lynx]

how was the character destroyed? She was angry, but then at the end she was back to her old self. Except aged a few years

She was not back to "her old self" the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. She showed up in the episode as a crazy idiot and left as a pathetic old wreck.

Where was the real Kes, the brave, curious Kes who wanted to learn and explore?

That's what I mean with character destruction and I can't accept that.

I also question the reason why they first dump the character and spend two years more and less denying the existance of the character in order to make the fans forget her. Then they bring her back-only to destroy her.

That was rude and unnecessary and I can't accept that either.

 

[Lynx]

Wow, people, I've only seen such strong opinions about Kirk, but it's kinda nice to see it with a Voyager character.

The real Kes was a brave, curious character who wanted to learn and explore, not an insane monster or some pathetic wreck who wanted to crawl back to that dreadful planet and die there.

If I saw that in Fury, I'd hate that episode, too. But I didn't think she looked pathetic, she came across as powerful to me. Bitter as all hell, but stronger and more accomplished than ever. I assumed something went seriously wrong with Kes to drive her to insanity. Plus, with Kes back at her planet, the rest of the Ocampans might learn from her and have a shot at long term survival after their energy supply runs dry. We also got that perfect goodbye scene with Neelix.

I guess it's just a matter of taste, but the potential for evil in an inherently good character really does it for me. I wish we'd seen more of that with Kim.

...Picard as a drunken fool who have become an alcoholic because of what happened to his relatives...

They pretty much destroyed Picard for me with Insurrection. This was the movie where he went to battle for the space hippy squatters who didn't feel like sharing the healthy radiation on their planet. By the end of that movie, I just wanted EVERYONE to die, but I still see what you're saying.

Thanks.

I guess that people who are not fans of the character Kes can find some events in "Fury" interesting in some way but for those who are fans of the character and who'd been hoping for a come-back (there was a letter-campaign going for having Kes re-instated as a regular character at that time) the events in "Fury" was a slap in the face.

Yes, I know that the Kirk fans are passionate and that they dislike the way Kirk was ruined in "Generations" and I do share their opinions when it comes to Kirk's participation in that movie. Another thing that those in charge really screwed up and by doing so they annoyed many fans too.

But the destruction of Kes was ten times worse than what happened to Kirk.

Kirk was at least portrayed as some sort of hero, Kes was turned into a monster and then a wreck.

I hate the fact that they did dump Neelix in "Homestead" (another stupid move from those in charge) but he did at least get a decent send-off compared to Kes. The same for Wesley Crusher, even if I did find The Traveler a bit creepy.

As for "something going terribly wrong with Kes", now why would Kes be the only one who got whacked? Why not, Neelix, Torres, Kim or anyone else?

And due to how the scene was set in "Fury" I don't think that the pathetic wreck ever came back to the planet, considering the time it had taken Voyager through this area of space and the dangers they encountered too.

And what should the wreck accomplish there? Shortly before the Caretaker died, he downloaded his knowledge and information to the planet (according to the book "Caretaker" which is based on the script). They probably had all the knowledge they needed at that time. We can also assume that the Ocampa on Suspiria's array may have got in touch with the people on the Ocampa planet after the events in "Cold Fire" and ay have shared their knowledge and technology with them too. Now what should a bitter, old wreck accomplish there, except to die there?

As for the goodbye scene with Neelix, it was half-done too. Besides that, I don't want any good-bye scenes at all with Kes as the leaving part.

As for Picard, I do see your point. But to be honest, I haven't thought about what he did in "Insurrection" as character destruction in any way. When I watched that movie, I saw the same, old Picard who simply helped an alien species to defend themselves. But I guess that there's other perspectives on that too.

Besides that, after the events there we still had the same old Picard on the Enterprise, ready for new challenges. For Kes, there was not a possibility for a decent come-back neither in any episodes, nor in movies or books. Those possibilities are minimal, thanks to the destruction of the character in "Fury". If I want to read a new, good Voyager story, then I have to write it myself.

 

[Akiraprise]

Have you read the String Theory books? I found them pretty respectful to Kes.

 

[Lynx]

Have you read the String Theory books? I found them pretty respectful to Kes.

The "String Theory" books are actually OK. They actually did a decent try to mend the damage made to the character in "Fury" and the way they did it is acceptable for me.

If I should come up with something critical about "String Theory" then it is the fact that they did solve the problem but at the same time didn't solve the problem.

If that looks confusing I can explain what I mean. They did save and restore the character by explaining the events in "Fury" the way they did but they din't bring back Kes as a member of the crew or as a permanent character in upcoming Voyager books.

 

[Mrs Paris]

how was the character destroyed? She was angry, but then at the end she was back to her old self. Except aged a few years

She was not back to "her old self" the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. She showed up in the episode as a crazy idiot and left as a pathetic old wreck.

Where was the real Kes, the brave, curious Kes who wanted to learn and explore?

That's what I mean with character destruction and I can't accept that.

I also question the reason why they first dump the character and spend two years more and less denying the existance of the character in order to make the fans forget her. Then they bring her back-only to destroy her.

That was rude and unnecessary and I can't accept that either.

maybe you just didn't watch the end of the episode. You should watch it again. At the end she is in fact back to her "old" self. She is back to being kind and intelligent and wants to go help her people. She had been out exploring for several years and wanted to go back to her own people to try to help them. What's wrong with that. It's actualy realy nice

 

[exodus]

how was the character destroyed? She was angry, but then at the end she was back to her old self. Except aged a few years

She was not back to "her old self" the Kes we saw in seasons 1-3. She showed up in the episode as a crazy idiot and left as a pathetic old wreck.

Where was the real Kes, the brave, curious Kes who wanted to learn and explore?

That's what I mean with character destruction and I can't accept that.

I also question the reason why they first dump the character and spend two years more and less denying the existance of the character in order to make the fans forget her. Then they bring her back-only to destroy her.

That was rude and unnecessary and I can't accept that either.

maybe you just didn't watch the end of the episode. You should watch it again. At the end she is in fact back to her "old" self. She is back to being kind and intelligent and wants to go help her people. She had been out exploring for several years and wanted to go back to her own people to try to help them. What's wrong with that. It's actualy realy nice

It doesn't matter given issue was also taken at the fact Neelix & Westly both left as well.

Some can't accept that fact that people enter and leave our lives all the time, just as children will grow up and move away from their parents to have lives and families all their own. It's a natural part of life.

If someone can't accept people (even fictional ones) change, then life will be a very difficult journey.

Jen Lien herself even approved and rewrote "Fury".