Their uniforms have some temperature controls per dialog in TOS.
I rate the maroons highly but them looking like a military uniform is not my objection.
What are your opinions regarding Star Trek that are, shall we say, unorthodox?
I rate the maroons highly but them looking like a military uniform is not my objection.
see, i like the "monster maroons", but hate when they appear in flashbacks and stuff TNG because without the belt and sweater, they look wrong.
on another note: i hate every pattern of uniform that opens up the back instead of the front. especially the ones clearly designed with collar gaps and paneling that clearly suggest they should upen up the front.
Military people wearing military uniforms is not a shocker.
Started UGLY, kept on getting uglier. Blech.The evolution of the Monster Maroon jackets and insignia/commbadges over 71 years.
Who said anything about being shocked? I appreciate that Star Trek has had different creative forces behind it over the decades, each with their own vision. I'm not remotely surprised one of them leaned into the trope of "space army" that dominates the sci-fi genre. (Notably it was Nicholas Meyer, not a fan of Star Trek.)
My comment was one of preference, not shock. I favored Roddenberry’s vision during the TNG era, where Starfleet was a scientific and diplomatic corps first and foremost, with defense being an ancillary function. It set Star Trek apart from every other sci-fi franchise. If preferring originality is unorthodox, I guess my opinion is at home in this thread.
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poor Andorrians all had heat strokes and weren't seen again in Starfleet for over a century
Eh, not really. An organization which is very similar to the military yet claims it isn't military is a very common trope in science fiction, Starfleet is just an example of dozens of such organizations across the science fiction genre.
Were the crew of Forbidden Planet associated with the military?
They carried blasters and assembled a blaster from parts they had in storage.
However, the initial expedition to the planet could be considered civilian.
They carried blasters and assembled a blaster from parts they had in storage.
However, the initial expedition to the planet could be considered civilian.
Exactly. TNG has:
1) A command structure
2) Uniforms
3) Military ranks
4) Weaponised space boats
It’s really silly to claim that Star Trek doesn’t depict the military.
But here we are again I suppose. Digits will be delighted.
They have a commander and lieutenants.
This reminds me of another one of my opinions that might be unorthodox...
My favorite Starfleet sidearms are the TNG era phasers: the cricket, the cobra and the boomerang, with an honorable mention to the dustbuster. This is partly due to my appreciation of Roddenberry's efforts to deemphasis militarism in TNG, but I also like them simply because they're different and weird. I appreciate outside-of-the-box designs that defy tropes.
I love that the cricket is so compact because it illustrates the principle that technology tends to get smaller yet more powerful as it evolves, but I understand its limitations as prop because it was too difficult to see in characters' hands.
For the record, I have no objection to phasers that look like handguns. Most of them are beautiful designs (in fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any I dislike). I'm simply ranking the unconventional designs above them.
My favorite Starfleet sidearms are the TNG era phasers: the cricket, the cobra and the boomerang, with an honorable mention to the dustbuster. This is partly due to my appreciation of Roddenberry's efforts to deemphasis militarism in TNG, but I also like them simply because they're different and weird. I appreciate outside-of-the-box designs that defy tropes.
I love that the cricket is so compact because it illustrates the principle that technology tends to get smaller yet more powerful as it evolves, but I understand its limitations as prop because it was too difficult to see in characters' hands.
For the record, I have no objection to phasers that look like handguns. Most of them are beautiful designs (in fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any I dislike). I'm simply ranking the unconventional designs above them.
There is nothing about Forbidden Planet that makes me think that the crew of the C-57D weren’t part of the military.
When did I claim TNG doesn't didn't dipicate the military? I said TNG deemphasized it. Deemphasize doesn't mean something is completely absent. Of course there were still military elements, but relative to the direction the TOS movies were taking at the time, the military aspect was scaled back.
This is well documented. It's the reason Roddenberry instructed Andrew Probert to design the Enterprise-D to look like a conference center rather than a battleship. It's the reason the bridge's layout was more collaborative and less hierarchical. It's the reason he told William Weiss to make the uniforms more casual than the Monster Maroons -- which is how we got the pajama style. It's the reason Roddenberry asked for the phasers to not look like handguns. Roddenberry spelled out his vision in the TNG series bible, explaining that he wanted Starfleet to continue to have a defense function, but he wanted that to be secondary.
In other words, I described it as a spectrum: "more military" versus "less military". But you've mistaken my words for a binary: "military" versus "not military".
TLDR: all the examples of militarism in TNG you listed are true, but none of them refute my point: relative to the movies TNG was less militaristic.
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I know you claim to be new to Star Trek, except when you don’t, but honestly this one goes around and around and around and has done for years.
Sorry, not biting. It’s not interesting.
All one has to do is watch DS9 to know that military function isn’t secondary.
In TOS, the mission to explore strange new worlds took a back seat when war broke out, then it was off to the front lines.
Even then, they ended up exploring strange new worlds like Organia and unexpectedly meeting new life.
Even then, they ended up exploring strange new worlds like Organia and unexpectedly meeting new life.
To be fair, DS9 falls squarely outside of Roddenberry’s involvement.
Oh cool, we're having the 'Is Star Trek a military?' discussion again.
Last time I think I settled on the idea that Starfleet serves the purposes of a military but shouldn't be tied down to assumptions about what a military is.
Like "It's unrealistic for a military organisation to be mostly made up of officers, and for the senior officers to carry out away missions personally". Yeah, but it's not unrealistic for a Starfleet to do that.
And so on.
Last time I think I settled on the idea that Starfleet serves the purposes of a military but shouldn't be tied down to assumptions about what a military is.
Like "It's unrealistic for a military organisation to be mostly made up of officers, and for the senior officers to carry out away missions personally". Yeah, but it's not unrealistic for a Starfleet to do that.
And so on.
Military:
1 - Our military does relief missions.
2 - We have the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
3 - A vast majority of exploration that has been done on Earth has been performed or been in cooperation with a military.
4 - We have USAMRIID, which locates, studies, and works on cures for various illnesses and diseases.
5 - The military has a rank structure and code of conduct.
6 - The military has court martials.
7 - And most importantly, the military fights our wars.
Starfleet:
1 - Starfleet does relief missions.
2 - Starfleet has a Corps of Engineers.
3 - Starfleet explores.
4 - Starfleet Medical locates, studies, and works on cures for various illnesses and disease.
5 - Starfleet has a rank structure and code of conduct.
6 - Starfleet has court martials.
7 - And most importantly, Starfleet fights ALL of the Federation's wars.
Functionally, Starfleet does EVERYTHING a military does. Therefore... Starfleet IS a military.
1 - Our military does relief missions.
2 - We have the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
3 - A vast majority of exploration that has been done on Earth has been performed or been in cooperation with a military.
4 - We have USAMRIID, which locates, studies, and works on cures for various illnesses and diseases.
5 - The military has a rank structure and code of conduct.
6 - The military has court martials.
7 - And most importantly, the military fights our wars.
Starfleet:
1 - Starfleet does relief missions.
2 - Starfleet has a Corps of Engineers.
3 - Starfleet explores.
4 - Starfleet Medical locates, studies, and works on cures for various illnesses and disease.
5 - Starfleet has a rank structure and code of conduct.
6 - Starfleet has court martials.
7 - And most importantly, Starfleet fights ALL of the Federation's wars.
Functionally, Starfleet does EVERYTHING a military does. Therefore... Starfleet IS a military.
No acknowledgment that you misrepresented my point? Are you unwilling to concede I never claimed Starfleet isn't a military? Do you understand you conflated "less militaristic" with "not militaristic"?
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