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Could Star Trek V been saved?

Luckenbill was ok, but Sybok was more of a plot device than an actual character.

Could the same not be said, to a greater or lesser extent, about any such ‘character of the week’ that appears in a multitude of Star Trek stories?

Any such character tends to live or die based on what the performer puts in I believe. The franchise is awash with programmatic types like Sybok.
 
Could the same not be said, to a greater or lesser extent, about any such ‘character of the week’ that appears in a multitude of Star Trek stories?

Absolutely. But in this case, Sybok and the circumstances surrounding his absolute turning of all of Kirk's friends against him with very little motivation, was a plot device to make Kirk look strong and everyone else look weak. I don't recall any other protagonist in any Star Trek show or film that was created specifically for this function.
 
First of all, although Sybok says he doesn't "control" minds he "releases pain" -- he is not being honest. He certainly does control minds. They didn't turn against the Captain they were, in fact, brainwashed. This has happened multiple times in TOS. "Catspaw" and "And the Children..." being two such cases. Fact is, that Kirk simply refused to allow Sybok to do the "ancient ritual" (as described in the script... but cut in editing).
Only Spock's Vulcan mental strength enabled him to snap out of it.

The script has Kirk ask Spock about Sybok's power and Spock says "an ancient ritual -- forbidden in modern times" If it was simply releasing someone from pain/guilt by coming to grips with it -- why would it be banned. That's pretty standard therapy. It's banned because it is in fact mind control.
Zero anything wrong with the crew coming under his sway in the movie any more than when that plot device was used in the original show.
 
None of that changes the inherent idea that Kirk was supposed to be the only one resistant to Sybok's influence at the expense of the rest of the characters, simply because Shatner wanted Kirk to be strong and everyone else weak. The entire premise of the film is meant to show that, basically, Kirk is awesome. From the silly rock-climbing scene where Kirk is acting all impervious and not remotely afraid of dying, to the admiral giving him the mission despite it making no logical sense to send Kirk, much less on a malfunctioning ship, to his imperviousness to Sybok's influence when all around him are succumbing, to his final battle with 'God.' It's all about Kirk and how awesome he is. The whole film is just self-serving crap for Shatner.
 
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None of that changes the inherent idea that Kirk was supposed to be the only one resistant to Sybok's influence at the expense of the rest of the characters, simply because Shatner wanted Kirk to be strong and everyone else weak. The entire premise of the film is meant to show that, basically, Kirk is awesome. From the silly rock-climbing scene where Kirk is acting all impervious and not remotely afraid of dying, to the admiral giving him the mission despite it making no logical sense to send Kirk, much less on a malfunctioning ship, to his imperviousness to Sybok's influence when all around him are succumbing, to his final battle with 'God.' It's all about Kirk and how awesome he is. The whole film is just self-serving crap for Shatner.
This is where the film ultimately fails is it is too Kirk centric at the expense of almost every other character. Even Klaa wants to fight Kirk because Kirk is awesome.
 
Love to see them at least fix the FX even if they don't re-edit the live action. I really like this movie a lot except for the bad FX and the comedy mis-steps.

Maybe some folks need to see Sybok to get rid of their hatred of Shatner. LOL.
 
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Kirk climbs a mountain, falls and nearly dies and is saved by his Spock.
Get assigned to rescue the hostages and fails and gets captured.
Tries to grab the gun and fails.
Fights Sybok hand to hand and loses.
Tries to escape the brig and fails until he is rescued by Scott.
Tries to send a message to Star Fleet that gets intercepted.
Gets captured by Sybok, again.
Doesn't have the nerve to actually to show the others his pain -- which would have then proved if he had the will to break Sybok's hold (which Spock did and was able to do).
Finally gets released by Sybok out of mercy -- not by actually escaping.
Cannot defeat or escape the "God" entity and is about to get killed when he is saved by Spock again.

I can't imagine a more "self-serving" script than that! :rolleyes:
 
Kirk climbs a mountain, falls and nearly dies and is saved by his Spock.
Get assigned to rescue the hostages and fails and gets captured.
Tries to grab the gun and fails.
Fights Sybok hand to hand and loses.
Tries to escape the brig and fails until he is rescued by Scott.
Tries to send a message to Star Fleet that gets intercepted.
Gets captured by Sybok, again.
Doesn't have the nerve to actually to show the others his pain -- which would have then proved if he had the will to break Sybok's hold (which Spock did and was able to do).
Finally gets released by Sybok out of mercy -- not by actually escaping.
Cannot defeat or escape the "God" entity and is about to get killed when he is saved by Spock again.

I can't imagine a more "self-serving" script than that! :rolleyes:

I didn't say Kirk was a superhero. I said that the movie portrays him in a self-serving light. If you thought the movie was fantastic, you're entitled to your opinion.
 
In my mind McCoy had an extramarital affair with Nancy that contributed to the breakup of his marriage.
If this were post-2009 Star Trek, or even DS9 on and onwards, I would see your point. But for TOS I think the story telling was such that main characters were viewed as too heroic to have broken such vows, or really any vows of any kind. It is not unrealistic that real life heroic characters have major flaws in other areas, but I don't see McCoy being with Nancy Crater while married to someone else, or even Nancy Crater being with McCoy while he was married, as something TOS would have ever done.
Could the same not be said, to a greater or lesser extent, about any such ‘character of the week’ that appears in a multitude of Star Trek stories?
For TV episodes, a guest character coming to the forefront is common, in TOS did that less that other shows. For a TOS movie, letting a guest character come so far the forefront might be a problem for some. I did not really notice how much screen time and lines Sybok got actually, until I ear it here.
he is not being honest.
In my view, as portrayed, Sybok seems to act totally honest...to what Sybok believes he is doing. It is we, the audience who realize, as you point out, that some form of mind control is taking place. It seems Sybok is telling the truth from his perspective, that he is helping others who then join his quest, but it is obvious to someone outside the situation that they are falling for a kind of trick.

Kirk is the one who sees through it...and as filmed Spock does, too. Spock knew Sybok and found a place with the Enterprise, so he can get free from Sybok's "help," and Kirk was one of the last to be offered "service" from Sybok, and by then he, like the audience could tell it wasn't really "help." If not for the "I need my pain" speech, and the fact that in this movie Kirk is a bit grouchy, Kirk is actually largely lucky that Sybok did not try to "assist" Kirk sooner.

Maybe some folks need to see Sybok to get rid of their hatred of Shatner. LOL.
The idea that this script is created to make Kirk look strong, specifically through the process of making others look weak is factually incorrect.

Kirk is supposed to look strong through the idea that Sybok is so strong that Sybok influenced everyone around him in a semi-religious way, and only Kirk sees through it. That is the intention, even if it does not come through on screen.

I'm not making that up, nor am I saying that as my analysis of the movie: Shatner himself explains this in Star Trek: Movie Memories.

If you don't like the movie because you think it tries to make Kirk look strong by making others look weak, then that is certainly valid movie criticism of the kind that this is a place to share. But to say that Shatner was motivated that way is just incorrect...unless you want to argue that he was intentionally putting half-truths in his book to hide it, and given the way he portrays his Star Trek V experience in the book that is--unlikely, because he admits plenty of mistakes.

The idea of the movie's threat to the Galaxy being a man who fancies himeslf a religious leader and who convinced most people he meets to join him, is not a great plan for a movie that the studio wanted to be "fun." Arguably the idea that Kirk (and Spock) are super strong because they resist him does not come accross well.

To insert a bit of analysis at this point, I think the reason that this movie can be misinterpreted as intending to make others look weak, is that, for Kirk to look strong by Sybok being very strong, it requires the audience to believe that Sybok actually has that much power. I can accept that a relgious leader could affect people this much and, if ill-meaning, perhaps even well meaning but doing the wrong thing, could lead others astray. But even accepting that, I don't think the movie does a good job portraying that. I'm just glad that Kelley and Nimoy fought to make their character stick by Kirk. Shatner's idea of having them be broken apart by this man was not a good idea for a Star Trek movie, or episode, or novel, or comic book, or video game or...
 
If this were post-2009 Star Trek, or even DS9 on and onwards, I would see your point. But for TOS I think the story telling was such that main characters were viewed as too heroic to have broken such vows, or really any vows of any kind. It is not unrealistic that real life heroic characters have major flaws in other areas, but I don't see McCoy being with Nancy Crater while married to someone else, or even Nancy Crater being with McCoy while he was married, as something TOS would have ever done.

For TV episodes, a guest character coming to the forefront is common, in TOS did that less that other shows. For a TOS movie, letting a guest character come so far the forefront might be a problem for some. I did not really notice how much screen time and lines Sybok got actually, until I ear it here.

In my view, as portrayed, Sybok seems to act totally honest...to what Sybok believes he is doing. It is we, the audience who realize, as you point out, that some form of mind control is taking place. It seems Sybok is telling the truth from his perspective, that he is helping others who then join his quest, but it is obvious to someone outside the situation that they are falling for a kind of trick.

Kirk is the one who sees through it...and as filmed Spock does, too. Spock knew Sybok and found a place with the Enterprise, so he can get free from Sybok's "help," and Kirk was one of the last to be offered "service" from Sybok, and by then he, like the audience could tell it wasn't really "help." If not for the "I need my pain" speech, and the fact that in this movie Kirk is a bit grouchy, Kirk is actually largely lucky that Sybok did not try to "assist" Kirk sooner.


The idea that this script is created to make Kirk look strong, specifically through the process of making others look weak is factually incorrect.

Kirk is supposed to look strong through the idea that Sybok is so strong that Sybok influenced everyone around him in a semi-religious way, and only Kirk sees through it. That is the intention, even if it does not come through on screen.

I'm not making that up, nor am I saying that as my analysis of the movie: Shatner himself explains this in Star Trek: Movie Memories.

If you don't like the movie because you think it tries to make Kirk look strong by making others look weak, then that is certainly valid movie criticism of the kind that this is a place to share. But to say that Shatner was motivated that way is just incorrect...unless you want to argue that he was intentionally putting half-truths in his book to hide it, and given the way he portrays his Star Trek V experience in the book that is--unlikely, because he admits plenty of mistakes.

The idea of the movie's threat to the Galaxy being a man who fancies himeslf a religious leader and who convinced most people he meets to join him, is not a great plan for a movie that the studio wanted to be "fun." Arguably the idea that Kirk (and Spock) are super strong because they resist him does not come accross well.

To insert a bit of analysis at this point, I think the reason that this movie can be misinterpreted as intending to make others look weak, is that, for Kirk to look strong by Sybok being very strong, it requires the audience to believe that Sybok actually has that much power. I can accept that a relgious leader could affect people this much and, if ill-meaning, perhaps even well meaning but doing the wrong thing, could lead others astray. But even accepting that, I don't think the movie does a good job portraying that. I'm just glad that Kelley and Nimoy fought to make their character stick by Kirk. Shatner's idea of having them be broken apart by this man was not a good idea for a Star Trek movie, or episode, or novel, or comic book, or video game or...

People saying things long after the fact are not the most reliable of narrators.
 
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Maybe some folks need to see Sybok to get rid of their hatred of Shatner. LOL.
I harbor no ill will towards Shatner. I find the film mid level at best, but Kirk routinely comes out on top and largely unfazed. Sybok is able to convert the whole crew off screen but Kirk is too strong. Kirk is the only experienced captain who could deal with the crisis. Kirk gets to the hostages first, as well as is the only one to solve the crash landing scenario.

It all stacks up to ridiculous levels at times. Yes, there are places where he fails, but that's brushed off far more quickly, usually with a joke.

"Hi, Bones. Mind if we drop in for dinner."
"Please, sir. Not in front of the Klingons."
"Maybe God's not out there. Maybe he's in here."
 
People saying things long after the fact are not the most reliable of narrators.
So despite Shatner explicitly describing a scenario different to the one you are claiming, in a published work, a first hand account (aka primary source), you are going to stick with the idea that he was intentionally trying to make the others look weak? And you basis for this is that since the narrative is not the one you expect, the published book itself is flawed?

On top of the (literal) evidence to the contrary, it makes no sense that Shatner would do that, and I have never heard evidence that he did that. It does not help the story, nor was it effective in making Kirk look better.

More importantly this claim has no basis in the completed film. The others don't really look THAT much weaker in this movie, and, to me at least, Kirk does not seem to look stronger in Star Trek V than in other films. So you are suggesting that his leadership was both egotistical but yet somehow ineffective in reaching those egotistical goals?
 
So despite Shatner explicitly describing a scenario different to the one you are claiming, in a published work, a first hand account (aka primary source), you are going to stick with the idea that he was intentionally trying to make the others look weak? And you basis for this is that since the narrative is not the one you expect, the published book itself is flawed?

On top of the (literal) evidence to the contrary, it makes no sense that Shatner would do that, and I have never heard evidence that he did that. It does not help the story, nor was it effective in making Kirk look better.

More importantly this claim has no basis in the completed film. The others don't really look THAT much weaker in this movie, and, to me at least, Kirk does not seem to look stronger in Star Trek V than in other films. So you are suggesting that his leadership was both egotistical but yet somehow ineffective in reaching those egotistical goals?

You seem to think that I believe Shatner went to the Paramount executives and said "I want to make a movie all about how great Kirk is, and everyone else plays second fiddle to him."

Shatner wanted to make a movie that was an allegory for the dangers of believing television evangelists. That was his general, basic idea. It wasn't a very good idea, but it was his idea nonetheless. What we ended up with was a nonsensical plot, bad acting, a subpar villain, and a movie focusing almost entirely on Kirk despite the revelation that Spock has a brother we never knew about for 30 years. Deep down, did Shatner really just want to make a self-serving movie? Probably not consciously. Subconsciously? Who knows. But that's how it came across to me.

Shatner can believe whatever he wants. He still believes to this day that his film is great and that it only lacked better VFX to make it a true masterpiece. And he's entitled to his opinion. I have mine.
 
^^ Or Nancy simply came along after McCoy’s marriage had already ended.
Certainly possible, but I personally find that much less interesting of a scenario. So McCoy's marriage ended for whatever reason and Nancy was someone he dated shortly thereafter. Who cares? But if he had an affair with Nancy and broke it off in the hopes of saving his marriage, only for it to end in a bitter divorce anyway, that's intriguing, it adds some extra dimension to McCoy's character, and it helps explain why McCoy has so many unresolved feelings towards Nancy in "The Man Trap."

If this were post-2009 Star Trek, or even DS9 on and onwards, I would see your point. But for TOS I think the story telling was such that main characters were viewed as too heroic to have broken such vows, or really any vows of any kind. It is not unrealistic that real life heroic characters have major flaws in other areas, but I don't see McCoy being with Nancy Crater while married to someone else, or even Nancy Crater being with McCoy while he was married, as something TOS would have ever done.
I conceived this idea by thinking about Leonard McCoy as a real person with real feelings, not as just a character from a 1960s TV series. That leads you to some much more interesting places. Just as TWOK gave us a Jim Kirk who cheated at the Kobayashi Maru test and had a long-lost son from a previous relationship (two things that NEVER would've occurred on TOS), this gives us a much more nuanced characterization of McCoy.

One thing from the 2009 Star Trek movie that influenced me, though: The Kelvin McCoy says in 2255 "My ex-wife took the whole damn planet in the divorce." We don't know for sure that McCoy's marriage broke up around the same time in the Prime Timeline, but then again, we don't know that it didn't, either. So why ignore the serendipity that it happened at the same time in both universes? In my timeline, "The Man Trap" takes place in 2265, so "We walked out of each other's lives ten years ago" puts the end of the McCoy/Nancy relationship in 2255. McCoy saying that Nancy “looks exactly as I knew her 12 years ago… like a girl of 25,” puts the beginning of their relationship in 2253, when McCoy is 33.

The TOS Writer's Guide states: "Dr. McCoy is 45 years of age, was married once… something of a mystery that ended unhappily in a divorce. He has a daughter, 'Joanna', who is 20 and in training as a nurse somewhere. McCoy has provided for her, hears from her as often as intergalactic mail permits, but his duty aboard the starship keeps them apart. We will suspect that it was the bitterness of this marriage and divorce which turned McCoy to the Space Service." So the main thing we know about McCoy's marriage is that it ended unhappily and bitterly, and drove him to Starfleet. McCoy having a two-year affair with Nancy certainly qualifies as an unhappy and bitter end to the marriage.

I've read Michael Jan Friedman's Shadows of the Sun, but personally, I find it a lot more trite and predictable if McCoy's wife cheated on him, instead of the other way around. It just turns the ex-Mrs. McCoy into an easy character to root against. Bones cheating on his wife leads to a lot more internal conflict, which is certainly in the TOS tradition, even if it's something they couldn't or wouldn't have alluded to on 1960s TV.
 
Whats sad is the almost reflex assumption that a marriage ended because of infidelity rather than simple incompatibility or irreconcilable differences. It happened to my brother—he was mature for his age and she too young at the time. She was only 18 and him 23 when they married and that was too large of an age difference for them then. She was a wonderful person, but too young to really appreciate what being married really meant in terms of responsibilities. Neither cheated on the other, but my brother was ready to settle down and she wasn’t yet ready and not yet prepared to do her part to take care of a household. In a general sense it was as if my brother had gotten something more of a younger sister rather than a wife.

This was in the late ‘70s to early ‘80s. My brother didn’t expect her to be a housewife in the conventional sense, particularly given she was working herself. But he did expect her to contribute to taking care of their home when they rented a small house. It didn’t work out. I remember him crying when he couldn’t do it anymore and accepted it was over.

They were at different stages in their lives (psychologically) and they just couldn’t make it work. If they had waited a few more years before marrying it might have worked out different. But sometimes when you’re young you haven’t enough patience yet. And in those days young women were beginning to have more options if they wanted to make their own way rather than feeling they were stuck. Also times were changing and the stigma of separation and divorce was fading.
 
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@Warped9

Well said. There’s a plethora of reasons why a couple might find a marriage breaking apart, especially if one of them is serving on something like a starship… on a five year mission, no less.

It certainly qualifies as a long distance relationship. Many marriages fall apart on that basis alone.
 
Whats sad is the almost reflex assumption that a marriage ended because of infidelity rather than simple incompatibility or irreconcilable differences.
It's not a reflex assumption. It's imagining what would be the most interesting and dramatic backstory.

There’s a plethora of reasons why a couple might find a marriage breaking apart, especially if one of them is serving on something like a starship… on a five year mission, no less.
As I can't recall TOS ever giving any indication that McCoy was married during the series (and indeed showed him as unattached a few times), his marriage presumably ended long before TOS.
 
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