Spoilers The War Between the Land and the Sea discussion thread

[The Grinch Doctor]

Oof, those first two episodes are rough.

While I...appreciate...the themes of the show, they are presented in such a horribly melodramatic and heavy-handed fashion that the show undermines all of the points it's trying get across. Even when the things begin to get interesting in the back half of the second episode, it's still incredibly cumbersome. But the worst sin of the whole two episodes is that all of this relies on everyone, including smart people like Kate and Shirley, being incredibly stupid, ignorant, and naïve.

Yes, such naivety is part of the point of the Homospondyl Erectus* are trying to get across, right down to the point of telling everyone why they chose Barclay as their ambassador and everyone spirals about "WHY HIM?!?!?!" No one is interested in listening to Salt and every time Barclay actually tries to listen, he gets slapped down.

Which is the only reason why the back half of the second episode is actually interesting because he finally begins to assert himself, even it backfired on him when Homospondyl Erectus rightfully threw back all of the mankind's waste and pollution onto the land. And yet, I still was yelling at the screen when Salt demanded their home territory as the next meeting place and even Kate and Shirley all "What, wait, where do you want to meet!" Ugh.

All of this is to say is I want to enjoy the show and the themes it wants to talk about (environmental issues, fighting against corporations, listening to younger generations, etc.) but I really wish the writing and directing met up to the task.

*And fuck, I know part of the point of the name is to demonstrate how inherently racist humans are by insisting on Homo Aqua because it sounds better, but it's just another round of heavy handedness that I got very tired of very quickly. Which, of course, comes back to the fundamental point of no one asking what THEY want to be called. But it feels like the show isn't interested in even doing that.

**I've added a poll to the thread. Feel to vote whenever you like. You're able to change to vote if you wish to up or downgrade your vote as the series progresses. I'm going to hold off until the series concludes, but I don't have high hopes for a decent grade.

 

[jaime]

Oof, those first two episodes are rough.

While I...appreciate...the themes of the show, they are presented in such a horribly melodramatic and heavy-handed fashion that the show undermines all of the points it's trying get across. Even when the things begin to get interesting in the back half of the second episode, it's still incredibly cumbersome. But the worst sin of the whole two episodes is that all of this relies on everyone, including smart people like Kate and Shirley, being incredibly stupid, ignorant, and naïve.

Yes, such naivety is part of the point of the Homospondyl Erectus* are trying to get across, right down to the point of telling everyone why they chose Barclay as their ambassador and everyone spirals about "WHY HIM?!?!?!" No one is interested in listening to Salt and every time Barclay actually tries to listen, he gets slapped down.

Which is the only reason why the back half of the second episode is actually interesting because he finally begins to assert himself, even it backfired on him when Homospondyl Erectus rightfully threw back all of the mankind's waste and pollution onto the land. And yet, I still was yelling at the screen when Salt demanded their home territory as the next meeting place and even Kate and Shirley all "What, wait, where do you want to meet!" Ugh.

All of this is to say is I want to enjoy the show and the themes it wants to talk about (environmental issues, fighting against corporations, listening to younger generations, etc.) but I really wish the writing and directing met up to the task.

*And fuck, I know part of the point of the name is to demonstrate how inherently racist humans are by insisting on Homo Aqua because it sounds better, but it's just another round of heavy handedness that I got very tired of very quickly. Which, of course, comes back to the fundamental point of no one asking what THEY want to be called. But it feels like the show isn't interested in even doing that.

**I've added a poll to the thread. Feel to vote whenever you like. You're able to change to vote if you wish to up or downgrade your vote as the series progresses. I'm going to hold off until the series concludes, but I don't have high hopes for a decent grade.

The problem with the environmental stuff — and I speak a someone who still would rather like a green Blue Peter Badge — is it completely reframes the Sea Devil idea as one about ‘humans bad/other guys good’. Which is not the dichotomy inherent in their origins. It’s actually about ‘whose land is this’ and ‘how do you make peace when both sides are equally right, but also equally at fault for agression’.
Which usually ended with the Doctor wishing there had been another way, as he inevitably has to save the humans — who are the underdogs (albeit not necessarily by much) compared to the older Eocene civilisations.

But, we’ve already had The Zygon Inversion, which this sometimes feels like it’s riffing on a little bit. (Incidentally, the Zygon would also be affected by all this, but no one’s talking about that.)

It’s a bit heavy handed and silly at times, but I want to see how it pans out — no way, after all, that the Sea Devils (Homo Aqua is stupid, unless they branched off from primates like us) got to where *they are* without going through a stage where they too screwed over other species or the planet. (Do they just eat seaweed? Are they apex predators? Do they like sushi? Did they dump all their crap on land and there it stayed until Columbus rocked up?)
It’s not who’s first environmental rodeo, not even its second. It’s not even the first time a bunch of blue-skinned dudes marched out of the sea in part as a result of humans polluting ways. (Ingiger and the Haemovores, Curse of Fenric, 1989)
It is its most simplistic and preachy attempt, and it maybe would have worked better as a Who story and with some new thing that isn’t the Sea Devils. (Whose shared civilisation was said to have used humanities ancestors as slaves incidentally. Another little wrinkle we’re not addressing in the moral element of this story.)

But then, perhaps that is too much faith in the writers these days, that and assuming they won’t muff up the ending.

I am at the moment willing to find out, even if we’re going to have to also see RTD do The Shape of Water along the way.

 

[Neb Lleb]

Oof, those first two episodes are rough.

While I...appreciate...the themes of the show, they are presented in such a horribly melodramatic and heavy-handed fashion that the show undermines all of the points it's trying get across. Even when the things begin to get interesting in the back half of the second episode, it's still incredibly cumbersome. But the worst sin of the whole two episodes is that all of this relies on everyone, including smart people like Kate and Shirley, being incredibly stupid, ignorant, and naïve.

Yes, such naivety is part of the point of the Homospondyl Erectus* are trying to get across, right down to the point of telling everyone why they chose Barclay as their ambassador and everyone spirals about "WHY HIM?!?!?!" No one is interested in listening to Salt and every time Barclay actually tries to listen, he gets slapped down.

Which is the only reason why the back half of the second episode is actually interesting because he finally begins to assert himself, even it backfired on him when Homospondyl Erectus rightfully threw back all of the mankind's waste and pollution onto the land. And yet, I still was yelling at the screen when Salt demanded their home territory as the next meeting place and even Kate and Shirley all "What, wait, where do you want to meet!" Ugh.

All of this is to say is I want to enjoy the show and the themes it wants to talk about (environmental issues, fighting against corporations, listening to younger generations, etc.) but I really wish the writing and directing met up to the task.

*And fuck, I know part of the point of the name is to demonstrate how inherently racist humans are by insisting on Homo Aqua because it sounds better, but it's just another round of heavy handedness that I got very tired of very quickly. Which, of course, comes back to the fundamental point of no one asking what THEY want to be called. But it feels like the show isn't interested in even doing that.

**I've added a poll to the thread. Feel to vote whenever you like. You're able to change to vote if you wish to up or downgrade your vote as the series progresses. I'm going to hold off until the series concludes, but I don't have high hopes for a decent grade.

So, once again, Russell T. Davies has shown the Doctor Who fandom and audiences at large that he's unfit for duty and that he needs to leave.

To quote a DoctorWhoTV article, "I'm just waiting for the 2026 Christmas special where Father Christmas becomes 'SantX, liberator of the height-challenged gift distribution union'".
EDIT: BTW, missed opportunity by not having the lowest rating of the poll be "Needs Extermination".

 

[Starkers]

So, once again, Russell T. Davies has shown the Doctor Who fandom and audiences at large that he's unfit for duty and that he needs to leave.

Other opinions are available...

At the moment I'd probably give it a 6 or 7, hoping it perks up a bit once we get to the undersea city!

 

[Neb Lleb]

Other opinions are available...

At the moment I'd probably give it a 6 or 7, hoping it perks up a bit once we get to the undersea city!

I have no interest in this serial, but I do have a strong feeling that it would probably play out more like a blatant rip-off of [Battle for] Terra or James Cameron's Avatar, with the "Humans are the real villains" premise and all the shameless virtue signalling and exclusionary millennial-style writing of RTD2 era Doctor Who, once the series reaches the Sea Devils'/"Homo Aquas'" city.

TBH, watching an episode from the RTD2 era ("Devil's Chord") was more than enough to turn me off.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I've really enjoyed it so far.

 

[Starkers]

I have no interest in this serial, but I do have a strong feeling that it would probably play out more like a blatant rip-off of [Battle for] Terra or James Cameron's Avatar, with the "Humans are the real villains" premise and all the shameless virtue signalling and exclusionary millennial-style writing of RTD2 era Doctor Who, once the series reaches the Sea Devils'/"Homo Aquas'" city.

TBH, watching an episode from the RTD2 era ("Devil's Chord") was more than enough to turn me off.

I don't feel RTD is 'virtue signalling' any more these days than he was doing back in 2005 (I still remember all the gay agenda bullshit).

 

[Neb Lleb]

I've really enjoyed it so far.

If people out there are enjoying this, that's A-OK in my opinion.

 

[jaime]

I don't feel RTD is 'virtue signalling' any more these days than he was doing back in 2005 (I still remember all the gay agenda bullshit).

Oh he really is. At least when he vaguely gestured in the direction of some social commentary in his first run, you weren’t left staggered by how much he missed the point or undermined it so much it would probably get a thumbs up from the YMCA President.
He’s got Blue Peter Fact Sheet levels of knowledge of half the stuff he puts in now, and is just another rich upper-middle to upper class media luvvie, writing fantasy people. Which is fine, unless you’re reaching for that social commentary click.

 

[Neb Lleb]

Oh he really is. At least when he vaguely gestured in the direction of some social commentary in his first run, you weren’t left staggered by how much he missed the point or undermined it so much it would probably get a thumbs up from the YMCA President.

Actually, it's because back then, he understood that Doctor Who is meant to be an inclusive franchise. It's very political given its nature as science fiction, but it's also made in a way that anyone, regardless of gender, sexual preference or skin colour, could embrace it and join in on the Doctor's adventures. And more often than not, the messages it delivered were honestly necessary, well-meaning lessons on life, the universe and everything.

The Chibnall and RTD2 eras... Are anything BUT inclusive.

 

[jaime]

Actually, it's because back then, he understood that Doctor Who is meant to be an inclusive franchise. It's very political given its nature as science fiction, but it's also made in a way that anyone, regardless of gender, sexual preference or skin colour, could embrace it and join in on the Doctor's adventures. And more often than not, the messages it delivered were honestly necessary, well-meaning lessons on life, the universe and everything.

The Chibnall and RTD2 eras... Are anything BUT inclusive.

Completely. But ham-fisted about it, in the sense that they don’t seem to understand what they are talking about. I would say RTD seems worse for that than Chibnall tbh.
I do think they have almost intentionally tried to alienate some viewers, largely for the publicity such behaviour gets — and the odd hope it will draw in new viewers. The very odd hope.

 

[Starkers]

Actually, it's because back then, he understood that Doctor Who is meant to be an inclusive franchise. It's very political given its nature as science fiction, but it's also made in a way that anyone, regardless of gender, sexual preference or skin colour, could embrace it and join in on the Doctor's adventures. And more often than not, the messages it delivered were honestly necessary, well-meaning lessons on life, the universe and everything.

The Chibnall and RTD2 eras... Are anything BUT inclusive.

Can you clarify how RTD was inclusive in the 2000s and isn't now?

The only difference I can see is that when he once felt that it was important to highlight equality specifically in relation to things like sexuality and ethnicity, these days perhaps he leans more towards disability and trans issues? I know RTD has said his own attitudes have changed, in relation to how disabled people are portrayed for example, and whilst I think retconning Davros without his wheelchair is a dumb idea, trying to avoid falling into the trap of using disability/disfigurement as shorthand for 'evil' is a laudable aim, and sure as hell something the Bond franchise needs to get on board with.

Completely. But ham-fisted about it, in the sense that they don’t seem to understand what they are talking about. I would say RTD seems worse for that than Chibnall tbh.
I do think they have almost intentionally tried to alienate some viewers, largely for the publicity such behaviour gets — and the odd hope it will draw in new viewers. The very odd hope.

Is it that he's tried to intentionally alienate some viewers, or that some viewers have chosen to feel alienated because they're not happy about some of the things he's done? In effect, is this really about RTD or is it about the, let's say issues, some viewers have with regard to certain subjects?

 

[Turtletrekker]

No matter what RTD says, portraying Davros without the wheelchair was a budget issue and nothing else. They certainly weren't going to spend the money to build the prop and go through the makeup for a 5-minute charity sketch. The rest is just justification.

 

[jaime]

Can you clarify how RTD was inclusive in the 2000s and isn't now?

The only difference I can see is that when he once felt that it was important to highlight equality specifically in relation to things like sexuality and ethnicity, these days perhaps he leans more towards disability and trans issues? I know RTD has said his own attitudes have changed, in relation to how disabled people are portrayed for example, and whilst I think retconning Davros without his wheelchair is a dumb idea, trying to avoid falling into the trap of using disability/disfigurement as shorthand for 'evil' is a laudable aim, and sure as hell something the Bond franchise needs to get on board with.



Is it that he's tried to intentionally alienate some viewers, or that some viewers have chosen to feel alienated because they're not happy about some of the things he's done? In effect, is this really about RTD or is it about the, let's say issues, some viewers have with regard to certain subjects?

Nope. I specify ‘they’ rather than RTD individually firstly. Then you have interviews such as the infamous ‘touch grass’ with Ncuti and other polarising interviews with guest stars. (Jinx Monsoon springs to mind.)
Then there’s stuff like presenting the (rather good) episode as The Story and The Engine as being (to paraphrase) ‘the first episode with an all BAME’ cast — which is by its nature not inclusive, because it’s very much about what is not present. (I also think in the case of that episode, it would have been more powerful and much more interesting to have Davison back rather than Jo Martin. It also would have avoided more of that TC stuff xD)
There’s the presentation of Rose Noble (not even the first Trans actor in Who incidentally) which managed to get so much wrong whilst be pushed as so much right. But I have explained the issues with that character, and by Reality War it’s just basically laughable.

This is not what might be called ‘inclusive’ elements being put in, and then the audience getting their knickers in a twist. (Battlefield in 1989 had a Black British woman Brigadier, a British Chinese woman companion-to-companion, a blind character, a French character, an Eastern European bit-part, and a strong anti-Nuclear proliferation message — no one had any politically motivated issues, and still to this day don’t) This is an outright polarised presentation where things are pushed as deliberately confrontational, largely for the publicity that will bring. (Engagement chasing on social media.)
It hasn’t brought in a new audience, but has pushed some away — not even necessarily because they have strong views on the subjects, but just because they don’t like *how* it’s being done.

Then there is the ‘gun sonic’ nonsense, the ‘Davros Disabled’ nonsense, the ‘microagression’ nonsense of Dot & Bubble, and so much else. (Including frankly imho a complete mishandling of our first Black British Doctor that in places plays into old stereotypes and other strangeness.)

There has been an off-screen media push in interviews and behind the scenes stuff released that misses the point. It isn’t the retrospective tongue-in-cheek ‘we were trying to bring down the Thatcher government’ of the Cartmel days, nor is it in anyway ‘inclusive’. (See the villains backstory of Robot Revolution and Lucky Day/Wish World/Reality war for some particularly unpleasant approaches)

Inclusivity and Equality is about putting people on the same level regardless of background. It’s about actually being aware of what you are writing about, or writing against, and I genuinely think RTD is so much in *his* little bubbles and wrapped in his tastes that he genuinely doesn’t have a clue.
He basically needs to check his privilege.
And his biases. He has some prejudices.

 

[Neb Lleb]

Nope. I specify ‘they’ rather than RTD individually firstly. Then you have interviews such as the infamous ‘touch grass’ with Ncuti and other polarising interviews with guest stars. (Jinx Monsoon springs to mind.)
Then there’s stuff like presenting the (rather good) episode as The Story and The Engine as being (to paraphrase) ‘the first episode with an all BAME’ cast — which is by its nature not inclusive, because it’s very much about what is not present. (I also think in the case of that episode, it would have been more powerful and much more interesting to have Davison back rather than Jo Martin. It also would have avoided more of that TC stuff xD)
There’s the presentation of Rose Noble (not even the first Trans actor in Who incidentally) which managed to get so much wrong whilst be pushed as so much right. But I have explained the issues with that character, and by Reality War it’s just basically laughable.

This is not what might be called ‘inclusive’ elements being put in, and then the audience getting their knickers in a twist. (Battlefield in 1989 had a Black British woman Brigadier, a British Chinese woman companion-to-companion, a blind character, a French character, an Eastern European bit-part, and a strong anti-Nuclear proliferation message — no one had any politically motivated issues, and still to this day don’t) This is an outright polarised presentation where things are pushed as deliberately confrontational, largely for the publicity that will bring. (Engagement chasing on social media.)
It hasn’t brought in a new audience, but has pushed some away — not even necessarily because they have strong views on the subjects, but just because they don’t like *how* it’s being done.

Then there is the ‘gun sonic’ nonsense, the ‘Davros Disabled’ nonsense, the ‘microagression’ nonsense of Dot & Bubble, and so much else. (Including frankly imho a complete mishandling of our first Black British Doctor that in places plays into old stereotypes and other strangeness.)

There has been an off-screen media push in interviews and behind the scenes stuff released that misses the point. It isn’t the retrospective tongue-in-cheek ‘we were trying to bring down the Thatcher government’ of the Cartmel days, nor is it in anyway ‘inclusive’. (See the villains backstory of Robot Revolution and Lucky Day/Wish World/Reality war for some particularly unpleasant approaches)

Inclusivity and Equality is about putting people on the same level regardless of background. It’s about actually being aware of what you are writing about, or writing against, and I genuinely think RTD is so much in *his* little bubbles and wrapped in his tastes that he genuinely doesn’t have a clue.
He basically needs to check his privilege.
And his biases. He has some prejudices.

I'm planning to add classic seasons and the first four and a half post-hiatus seasons to my home video collection down the road, and I don't think you could've summed up why past eras of Doctor Who are so beautiful and accessible and why the RTD2 era fails any more than that.

EDIT: The guy who designed one of Who's most divisive monsters (The Abzorbaloff) did a video that delved deep into why the Chibnall and especially RTD2 eras suffer so much from exclusionary nonsense which I highly recommend. He even brings up moments when the Whoniverse went further than RTD2 did in addressing contemporary issues (bringing particular attention to the Torchwood serial Children of Earth, which was ironically planned out and mostly written by Davies) and how those moments were far more genuine and approachable than anything from the current eras.

 

[jaime]

I'm planning to add classic seasons and the first four and a half post-hiatus seasons to my home video collection down the road, and I don't think you could've summed up why past eras of Doctor Who are so beautiful and accessible and why the RTD2 era fails any more than that.

EDIT: The guy who designed one of Who's most divisive monsters (The Abzorbaloff) did a video that delved deep into why the Chibnall and especially RTD2 eras suffer so much from exclusionary nonsense which I highly recommend. He even brings up moments when the Whoniverse went further than RTD2 did in addressing contemporary issues (bringing particular attention to the Torchwood serial Children of Earth, which was ironically planned out and mostly written by Davies) and how those moments were far more genuine and approachable than anything from the current eras.

Naysayers will try to frame it (similar to trek) as saying ‘Who has always been political or done social commentary and therefore this is just the same’ but just like the people saying ‘Who historically hasn’t been and shouldn’t be doing political or do social commentary’ they are essentially wrong.
It isn’t the same, and it’s rather poor. It isn’t even a NuWho vs Classic Who thing.
The Zygon Inversion is outright *brave* in what it did at the time. It’s also a world away from the clumsy, wrong footed and outright questionable stuff we’ve got these last few years. It will also be the best yardstick for comparison with War Between, as in a very basic way they have some of the same plot at their heart.

The division between old and new is more in the overt sexualisation of characters, and that has been to the detriment of the show in lots of places, even if it might get a giggle from the adults in the audience. It’s also way more overt when RTD is at the helm. But thats a whole different kettle of fish — Chibnall to the best of my recollection didn’t lean into that at all, which is partly why despite it being shite in other places, his run was much closer to classic Who. Not always in good ways, but noticeable ones.

RTD this time has been almost like AI/LLM writing, whereby it’s heard of a thing, and will now try to replicate that thing with bits of other things, but spectacularly misses the point.
Cybermen, writing poetry.

 

[Chaos Descending]

So does this show have the “real” Sea Devils in it at all (like we saw in “The Sea Devils” and “Warriors of the Deep”)? Or just the corny fish people from the trailer?