No I mean all the shows from TOS through to ENT....
Strange New Worlds' showrunners advise fans to write to Skydance and Paramount if they're interested in a "Year One" Kirk sequel series
- Thread starter Quinton
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No I mean all the shows from TOS through to ENT....
And ENT doesn't feel like it belongs pre-TOS.
Also, funny that ENTERPRISE is now vaunted when when it aired it was derided as ruining canon
Fans need new complaints. Or just stop watching if these newer Treks are ruining, destroying, disrespecting, insulting, etc. to the Trek franchise. Because if something is actually destroying things then it's a problem, as in the old shows are no longer available to watch. That's actual destruction.
To me ENT was TOS through the lens of TNG (DS9 & VOY)
True enlightenment is realising every episode takes place in its own isolated continuity. Every scene, even.
As long as it got brought up though, I still have a hard time thinking the TOS films occur in the same world as the TV series. Everything just feels viscerally wrong; I wasn't surprised to find out Roddenberry suggested the TV series was a fantastical depiction of events and the films were the "real" setting, because they don't feel alike at all.
As long as it got brought up though, I still have a hard time thinking the TOS films occur in the same world as the TV series. Everything just feels viscerally wrong; I wasn't surprised to find out Roddenberry suggested the TV series was a fantastical depiction of events and the films were the "real" setting, because they don't feel alike at all.
Sorry to snip this out but thank you! That's all I'm saying.
Be prepared to be told your wrong
Or rather, that the films were a more accurate dramatization. Everything is a dramatic interpretation of the same conjectural reality; the differences are not in the reality, but in how different creators choose to depict it.
Maybe that's easy for me to grasp because as a child, I discovered TOS reruns and TAS in first run within months, possibly weeks of each other, so my early experience of Star Trek was as a show that went back and forth between being live action and animated.
Well… TWOK was pretty much nearly-universally praised from the day it opened. The way I recall it, all the negative stuff was before the movie opened, with much of fandom angry at the rumors of Spock’s death. Once people actually saw it, most of that seemed to go away (no doubt helped by both the quality of the film, and the strong hint at the end that Spock’s return was somehow in the offing).And TWOK is now praised to the heavens.
After TMP the consensus was "Now that's more like it!"
Which is a little unfortunate for somebody like me who really likes TMP — not because TWOK wasn’t great (it was), but because almost every subsequent film all the way through to the present day has tried to follow its lead, usually a bit awkwardly.After TMP the consensus was "Now that's more like it!"
Very true.
We still got Voyage Home at least.
True it didn’t fit the model, but it managed to be the first Trek movie I didn’t love (it’s grown on me over the years, as they all do eventually, but for me the first three films were special).We still got Voyage Home at least.
Awkwardly is putting it nicely. TWOK was more action driven than TMP (no it's not an action movie in the contemporary sense). It also repeated several themes from TMP which was really annoying. TWOK is a well put together film, has great literature references, and Montalban is decent, if disturbing, in his performance. But, unfortunately, TWOK casts an extremely long shadow, resulting in aping attempts and the drive to find that lightning in a bottle again.
Ironically, the TWOK imitation didn't really begin until Nemesis, which given that movie didn't exactly light the world on fire you'd think they'd learn their lesson and not attempt that again. Instead, all three Kelvin movies imitates TWOK to some degree as does the third season of Picard.
If we're going to qualify imitation with "to some degree," then perhaps we could say that "The Best of Both Worlds" imitated TWOK to some degree, with the Paulson Nebula? It's really hard to look at that nebula and not think "Mutara Nebula."
Maybe there're real world reasons, and maybe technically it wasn't imitation. For example, was there in fact reused footage? I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if there were.
Even if there were, whether it's imitation would still depend on several factors, I think, like whether the decision to play hide and seek in a nebula in the first place was motivated by it having been done in TWOK.
Maybe there're real world reasons, and maybe technically it wasn't imitation. For example, was there in fact reused footage? I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if there were.
Even if there were, whether it's imitation would still depend on several factors, I think, like whether the decision to play hide and seek in a nebula in the first place was motivated by it having been done in TWOK.
In a broader sense, it began right away. TMP aspired to be a thought-provoking, intellectual science fiction drama in the 2001 mold; TWOK went for crowd-pleasing action and space battles in the Star Wars mold. And nearly every subsequent Trek movie followed the latter precedent, prioritizing action and spectacle over intellect and cramming in space battles even when it weakened the story. (The battles were shoehorned in with particular blatantness in Insurrection.)
Which is why I've never understood the attitude that TWOK was the one that "got it right." To me, it got Star Trek fundamentally wrong by dumbing it down into a battle-driven action franchise, and I hate that it set a precedent that subsequent moviemakers -- and TV makers, these days -- felt obligated to follow.
I was more thinking in the sense that Nemesis was the first one with direct parallels to TWOK, IE, the villain seeking revenge, the characters reflecting on aging and moving on in life, even the death of a main character, which the ending hints at a possible resurrection (though in this case, we'd be waiting much longer than we did after TWOK). Then the three Kelvin movies all feature villains seeking revenge, with STID actually bringing in a recast version of Khan himself. XI rather shamelessly cribbed several lines of dialogue from TWOK, STID of course did their own version of Spock's death scene, with he and Kirk swapping places while Beyond had Kirk moping over it being his birthday. Then Picard S3 went with the villain(s) seeking revenge, revelation of a previously unknown son, even the Mutara Nebula practically lifted right out of TWOK.
One of the most popular TOS episodes, frequently at the top of lists of favorites, is "Balance of Terror," which is little more than a thinly-disguised remake of The Enemy Below. It has nothing intellectual to offer, unless you count cat-and-mouse battle tactics. The subplot involving prejudice ends up having no bearing on the overall story. The loss of Tomlinson is a war-story cliché, it feeds melodrama and offers nothing intellectual. Kirk's final line of there having to be a reason for the loss is trite and banal, devoid of intellectual content.
It's hard to say TWOK got it wrong, when this is one of the go-to examples of a top-rated TOS episode.
An episode can be called good if the plot is objectively good or if the way the characters act within the plot (dialogue, gags, actions, memorable guests, etc.) is found to be enjoyable.
Quite so.
I should add that while I am critical of "Balance of Terror" and critical I think for good reason, I still very much enjoy the episode. Having something intellectual to offer is not a criterion for being a good episode. Even if I don't rate it as highly as others do, that doesn't make them wrong.
My overall point was that Star Trek is not defined by intellectualism, especially that it is not exclusively defined by it.
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