Why is canon important in a prequel?

[starburst]

After all these threads since the film was first announced, the teaser was released and the occassional "spy photo" Ive more and more started to wonder what Roddenberry and Jefferies thoughts would be on this subject, if TOS was in production today by the same people with todays level of technology would Jefferies design the same ship every Trek fan here seems to fawn over...mayb not.

Its been said before that Roddenberry wasnt against the idea of a recast and they did redesign the ship for the movie as they thought the original wouldnt work on the big screen.

This line of thought is pretty unimportant as we will never know (unless theres an afterlife where they will be constantly be bugged by Trek fans...probably closer to hell that one) but I could see them welcoming a fresh look at their work for a new century, never mind if it contradicts what they did before...change is good as long as the change gives it fresh life, you just have to be open to the idea and not judge before you even know the story or the extent of the changes.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

There was a point during the attempt to revive "Star Trek" in the 1970s when Roddenberry was willing to entertain the wholesale redesign of the Enterprise - check out the "Ralph McQuarrie Enterprise" which you can find images of all over the Internet.

 

[starburst]

There was a point during the attempt to revive "Star Trek" in the 1970s when Roddenberry was willing to entertain the wholesale redesign of the Enterprise - check out the "Ralph McQuarrie Enterprise" which you can find images of all over the Internet.

Yeh Ive seen that in the Art of Star Trek and Phase II books, to me that wasnt the Enterprise but then I came into Trek in the late 80s watching TOS reruns (and TNG) as a kid so to me it was too far removed from what I knew.

The difference (in terms of the ship in the teaser at least) is they have kept the basics if the original and updated it...the Nacelles look too big tho (said before and sorry have to say again)

 

[Saul]

As the current writers of this movie has said, canon is fun.

 

[Franklin]

There was a point during the attempt to revive "Star Trek" in the 1970s when Roddenberry was willing to entertain the wholesale redesign of the Enterprise - check out the "Ralph McQuarrie Enterprise" which you can find images of all over the Internet.

Yeh Ive seen that in the Art of Star Trek and Phase II books, to me that wasnt the Enterprise but then I came into Trek in the late 80s watching TOS reruns (and TNG) as a kid so to me it was too far removed from what I knew.

The difference (in terms of the ship in the teaser at least) is they have kept the basics if the original and updated it...the Nacelles look too big tho (said before and sorry have to say again)

I could be wrong, but didn't Roddenberry insist the changes that were made to the Enterprise for TMP have an explanation? Hence, the refitting? So we can imagaine any changes accepted as part of Phase II or whatever would've been explained away, too.
But that's not the same as changing what's already been seen. I think that's what's upsetting some people. Abrams 2265 will look different than Roddenberry's 2265 did. Peronally, I think it would be naive to think it shouldn't look different. Aesthetics change, and this is fiction, after all.

It's just this time, there is no convenient explanation for the changes Abrams has made.

As I've said before, if older Spock goes back to the mid-2200s, I wish he'd have a line like, "Strange, nothing looks as I remembered it."

 

[starburst]

I could be wrong, but didn't Roddenberry insist the changes that were made to the Enterprise for TMP have an explanation? Hence, the refitting? So we can imagaine any changes accepted as part of Phase II or whatever would've been explained away, too.

No your right, the Phase II pilot script became the TMP one (with changes) and in both the Enterprise was just finishing a refit.

I think that's what's upsetting some people. Abrams 2265 will look different than Roddenberry's 2265 did. Peronally, I think it would be naive to think it shouldn't look different. Aesthetics change, and this is fiction, after all.

It's just this time, there is no convenient explanation for the changes Abrams has made.

I agree, any explanation could depend on the story such as it being an ealier version which is refited or this story will be slightly different to previous canon where its similar but not the same, I have a feeling its going to be the latter, only another 12 months and a couple of weeks will tell

Forgetting an in story reason for change, they changed the ship for TMP because they felt the original would not work on the big screen, mayb the current PTB think the same (although Id argue for Vektors concept 1701)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I could give a damn how different Abrams' 2265 looks. As far as I'm concerned, it needs no explanation. What is, is.

 

[Sector 7]

People who are big fans of the supposed plot, or people who are big opponents of it... both are making the same mistake. They're ASSUMING things that they don't know, and insisting that their personal opinion be treated as fact.

This is the part I have a problem with, not only on this BBS, but among many fans everywhere. They tend to fixate on their favorite piece of canon/fanon and to hell with anyone who disagrees.
I for one, am like the other poster. I don't really care if they break some canon. TOS had many things about it that should be corrected... mild incongruities (the ones fans are always having to defend to non-Trekkers ).

Considering the postings I read about the re-mastered episodes... I think the people who will complain about the new movie the most are the hardcore fans (short for FANatics). The casual fans or non-fans who will go see the movie probably won't complain nearly as much as fans.
They are the ones whose opinion I really want to hear. The non-fans will judge the movie as they would any other movie, not on canon/fanon.
p.s.- what is Vektors concept 1701?

 

[ancient]

For people who want to see "Star Trek" appear more or less like it did in the 60s, the notion of it having modern Trek aesthetics is appaling, and vice versa. Nonetheless, everyone has a limit. The same people who say what the show looks like doesn't matter so long as it retains the spirit of "Star Trek" would probably balk at the notion of replacing all of the white characters with black actors, an almost purely visual conceit which shouldn't be a concern since only with rare exception did the race of any of the characters ever impact the stories.

Well, that's a pretty bad example. Any sane person would probably balk at such a nonsensical thing. Star Trek: Segregation. Yeah, that'll fly over real well with the network. The multi-ethnic nature of Trek would be violated, and I'd call that a pretty basic part of Trek.

However, I agree with the point you were trying to make, which was, everyone has their own threshold of tolerance for alterations. Including Abrams I'll add. My own has yet to be breached by this new movie, given so little info. But yeah, if Kirk turns out to have been a junkie in the Academy I'd have a problem with it. There is no indication of anything Earth-shattering though. Right now most complaints are over purely cosmetic uniform/ship changes (Or even additions. Heaven forbid we have any new shuttles...)

Or we could replace the Starfleet delta with a daisy, emphasizing with even greater symbolism the peaceful nature of the Federation and its exploratory efforts.

It was a flower-like design in TOS. A lot of traditionalists were disappointed by the use of the delta.

 

[Sector 7]

There was a point during the attempt to revive "Star Trek" in the 1970s when Roddenberry was willing to entertain the wholesale redesign of the Enterprise - check out the "Ralph McQuarrie Enterprise" which you can find images of all over the Internet.

Thank you for actually giving me a way to see what ship you are talking about. I wish more people would do that.
Actually I like that design. It seems to make more sense than the TOS design.
As for the delta insignia... it is unique to Star Trek so I am sure they will keep it. I can't imagine the "flower power" thing lasting as long as the delta has.
SIDE NOTE: Jeri Ryan and Nichelle Nichols from Trek have been named to "TV Guide's Sexiest Women of All Time" list.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Or we could replace the Starfleet delta with a daisy, emphasizing with even greater symbolism the peaceful nature of the Federation and its exploratory efforts.

It was a flower-like design in TOS. A lot of traditionalists were disappointed by the use of the delta.

The flower was only a symbol for crew posted to starbases. Even in TOS, the delta was always the Enterprise symbol.

 

[ancient]

Or we could replace the Starfleet delta with a daisy, emphasizing with even greater symbolism the peaceful nature of the Federation and its exploratory efforts.

It was a flower-like design in TOS. A lot of traditionalists were disappointed by the use of the delta.

The flower was only a symbol for crew posted to starbases. Even in TOS, the delta was always the Enterprise symbol.

It's use wasn't 100% clear, but it was the closest we got to seeing a SF symbol. In the spy pics they seem to be using the Ent symbol for the cadets and it's on some Academy banners. In other words, it's violating my friend here:

So expect a few people to be up in arms over it.

 

[mada101]

It was a flower-like design in TOS. A lot of traditionalists were disappointed by the use of the delta.

The flower was only a symbol for crew posted to starbases. Even in TOS, the delta was always the Enterprise symbol.

It's use wasn't 100% clear, but it was the closest we got to seeing a SF symbol. In the spy pics they seem to be using the Ent symbol for the cadets and it's on some Academy banners. In other words, it's violating my friend here:

So expect a few people to be up in arms over it.

*Decloaks*

During TOS and TAS, every ship had its own insignia:
- Enterprise had an arrowhead.
- Constellation had a weird pretzel-thing.
- Exeter had a rectangle with circles in it.
- Antares had a strange circle pattern.
- Huron had a blunted arrowhead with a bolt sticking through it.
- Ariel had an elongated arrowhead.

So did outposts:
- Earth Outpost 4 had an oval design with some pattern in it.
- Outpost Cestus III had a similar oval with a bit added on.

Starbase crews and all flag officers from Starfleet Command wore a golden flower/starburst pattern. Starfleet Academy cadets wore a similar flower/starburst pattern only in silver.

The general Starfleet insignia was the stylisized chevron seen on the side of the ships (on the engineering section), though ENT later also assigned the Defiant that logo too.

ENT (prequel to TOS) and TMP (sequel to TOS) also used assignment patches for their ships and stations (Enterprise, Columbia, Intrepid, Cold Station 12 and so forth on ENT; the Enterprise and Station Epsilon IX on TMP). It is pretty clear in canon that Starfleet used assignment patches from the when it was formed (ENT-era) until the TWoK timeframe.

For some reason, Abrams and the gang can't be bothered with all that, and are just using the Enterprise arrowhead for the entire of Starfleet. You can clearly see the cadets in the spy photos wearing them, and the banners attached to the lamp posts display it also. It was also worn by the miners in the on-set shots that were removed by Paramount.

*Cloaks*

 

[Sector 7]

For some reason, Abrams and the gang can't be bothered with all that, and are just using the Enterprise arrowhead for the entire of Starfleet.

Thanks for the education. I didn't realize the whole background. However, having said that, Abrams isn't the first to make that choice. So did TNG, DS9, VOY. I think the more logical choice is to make one symbol for all of StarFleet. The Enterprise delta is universally recognized as being STAR TREK by even non-fans, so it makes sense to use it.
I also think either a separate mission patch or PIN would also be a good idea. (More toys to buy!)

 

[Cary L. Brown]

For some reason, Abrams and the gang can't be bothered with all that, and are just using the Enterprise arrowhead for the entire of Starfleet.

Thanks for the education. I didn't realize the whole background. However, having said that, Abrams isn't the first to make that choice. So did TNG, DS9, VOY. I think the more logical choice is to make one symbol for all of StarFleet. The Enterprise delta is universally recognized as being STAR TREK by even non-fans, so it makes sense to use it.
I also think either a separate mission patch or PIN would also be a good idea. (More toys to buy!)

This was a choice made by Roddenberry (whether entirely on his own or at studio request is unclear) for TMP. He even put a bit into the novelization he wrote about how, when the Enterprise was the only one of the "group of twelve" to return essentially intact, Starfleet honored the ship by officially adopting the Enterprise insignia as that for all of Starfleet.

There's a good reason for this, of course... if you're doing an ongoing series, that is, and if your insignia is in the form of sewn-on patches (as was the case in both TOS and TMP). If you have just one insignia, you can issue off-the-rack costumes to extras without any extra work being done! If every ship has its own insignia, you have to rip off the patch and sew a new one on every time you show a different ship or crew.

NOT cost-effective for a TV show... which is why TOS, on occasion, didn't do this... especially for background extras.

Now, if you're doing a film, this is a non-issue. And if your insignia are in PIN form, it's also a non-issue, since you can just unpin/repin with different insignia with minimal wear and tear on the off-the-rack customs. SO... they COULD have done this in TNG... and I really wish that they had.

But they didn't... oh well.

And now they're going to toss that little bit of trivia out. It'll be missed...

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

He even put a bit into the novelization he wrote about how, when the Enterprise was the only one of the "group of twelve" to return essentially intact, Starfleet honored the ship by officially adopting the Enterprise insignia as that for all of Starfleet.

I remember that explaination and have seen it repeated in other works, such as Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise and have to say it never really rang true for me. But then, I always really liked the idea of different ship insignias, just like the different unit patches used in modern military organizations.

 

[mada101]

For some reason, Abrams and the gang can't be bothered with all that, and are just using the Enterprise arrowhead for the entire of Starfleet.

Thanks for the education. I didn't realize the whole background. However, having said that, Abrams isn't the first to make that choice. So did TNG, DS9, VOY. I think the more logical choice is to make one symbol for all of StarFleet. The Enterprise delta is universally recognized as being STAR TREK by even non-fans, so it makes sense to use it.
I also think either a separate mission patch or PIN would also be a good idea. (More toys to buy!)

Oh yes, Abrams wasn't the first. But TNG, DS9 and VOY were all set post-TMP, so they had the canonical freedom to do that. It was a little lame, but it saved on cash, so...

As Cary said, it was difficult for the production team to keep putting different patches onto the costumes. There were mistakes - some of the extras in 'Court Martial' wore Enterprise arrowheads when they were clearly from other ships (as did the blink-and-you'll-miss-her Commodore's adjutant), and in 'The Trouble With Tribbles' a guy in the bar fight is wearing a USS Antares logo, despite the fact that ship was destroyed in the previous season.

Having said that, ENT also used sewn-on patches and they never made any mistakes. The NX-01 Enterprise, NX-02 Columbia, starship Intrepid, Cold Station 12, Starfleet Command, NX-Project, Starfleet Security Sol Sector, the Starfleet people at the Vulcan Embassy and Malcolm's friend that Hoshi talks to on 'Silent Enemy' all wore unique patches. And that's not to mention all of the Mirror Universe ones in Season 4. So if a TV-budgeted series can afford to, I don't see why a $150 million dollar movie can't.

It's most likely a case of Abrams and co wanting to use the Enterprise arrowhead for everyone because they want to connect more with the modern Trek audiences or general viewers who just associate the badge with Star Trek. A real shame...

 

[starburst]

For some reason, Abrams and the gang can't be bothered with all that, and are just using the Enterprise arrowhead for the entire of Starfleet.

Thanks for the education. I didn't realize the whole background. However, having said that, Abrams isn't the first to make that choice. So did TNG, DS9, VOY. I think the more logical choice is to make one symbol for all of StarFleet. The Enterprise delta is universally recognized as being STAR TREK by even non-fans, so it makes sense to use it.
I also think either a separate mission patch or PIN would also be a good idea. (More toys to buy!)

Oh yes, Abrams wasn't the first. But TNG, DS9 and VOY were all set post-TMP, so they had the canonical freedom to do that. It was a little lame, but it saved on cash, so...

As Cary said, it was difficult for the production team to keep putting different patches onto the costumes. There were mistakes - some of the extras in 'Court Martial' wore Enterprise arrowheads when they were clearly from other ships (as did the blink-and-you'll-miss-her Commodore's adjutant), and in 'The Trouble With Tribbles' a guy in the bar fight is wearing a USS Antares logo, despite the fact that ship was destroyed in the previous season.

Having said that, ENT also used sewn-on patches and they never made any mistakes. The NX-01 Enterprise, NX-02 Columbia, starship Intrepid, Cold Station 12, Starfleet Command, NX-Project, Starfleet Security Sol Sector, the Starfleet people at the Vulcan Embassy and Malcolm's friend that Hoshi talks to on 'Silent Enemy' all wore unique patches. And that's not to mention all of the Mirror Universe ones in Season 4. So if a TV-budgeted series can afford to, I don't see why a $150 million dollar movie can't.

It's most likely a case of Abrams and co wanting to use the Enterprise arrowhead for everyone because they want to connect more with the modern Trek audiences or general viewers who just associate the badge with Star Trek. A real shame...

On the ENT point its possible alot of the background costumes used velcro similar to Stargate.

I liked the idea of the indivdual badges as it gave each ship and crew a unique identity. Hopefully the stylised ones we have seen are for SF Command and the original Enterprise emblem will be used for the Enterprise

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

This has been said before, but I think this is the easiest way to reconcile the use of the "delta" for Starfleet...

...In all of TOS, we never once saw anyone wearing the "Starfleet Insignia", so we don't know what it looks like. It could very well be the delta IS the Starfleet insignia, even during the TOS era, and for some reason the Enterprise had adopted that insignia.

Some people could argue that the "daisy" insignia is Starfleet, but that would only be speculation.

 

[Dr_Daystrom]

I just wish we could get a scene of the original Enterprise being built (and the bridge). I had hoped that when Enterprise (the series) ended they would have shown drawing board plans or something along those lines of the TOS Enterprise. I know many people say the original Enterprise is dated (especially the interior) but I think it could be pulled off with just a little bit of tweaking for modern audiences (different lighting, muted colors, maybe a little more set dressing).