Retroactive justification for Riker's friction towards Jellico?
- Thread starter Ragitsu
- Start date
Uh...he calls him Commander in the scene you posted.
"Will you pilot the shuttle, Commander?"
Fun fact, I learned some time ago that hyperpole is pronounced "high purr buh lee" and not hyper bowl.
On topic, Jellico wasn't perfect but he was neither evil nor incompetent or a danger to the mission and if he was the character we had known for years and the regulars were the guest stars most people would be on Jellico's side saying things like "OMG, he knows what he's doing, why are they whining so much?"
I definitely won't say that all of Jellico's changes were necessarily great ideas, but for the ostensible best of the best of Starfleet, you'd expect the command staff and crew to show a bit more adaptability. It's their duty to raise their objections to him, which most of them (Riker possibly excepted in some instances) did, and it's then his prerogative to either reconsider his orders in light of their objections or to tell them to push ahead anyway, and at that point, the conversation's over. Picard always liked to do the 'let's all meet in the conference room' style of leadership, but there's nothing to suggest that that was considered "best practice" in Starfleet, especially at a time of crisis (and I want to be clear that this seems to be more crisis than Crisis; nothing that happens here is on the scale of a Borg cube bearing down on Our Heroes or such).
Nothing he did exhibited incompetence or treasonous conduct, and from the E-D's performance in the episodes there's no indication that any of Jellico's changes had any significant adverse impact. Hell, I really would have enjoyed a later reference by Picard to some of Jellico's changes constituting improvements, perhaps with either begrudging or belatedly complimentary agreement from the command staff.
At my job I occasionally have things come up that require me to work on weekends or stay late, or I get into debates about things where I end up on the losing side. Sometimes I have conflicts due to preexisting commitments or what-not and I let my manager know that. But if I started regularly refusing to do anything that I disagreed with or felt would be problematic or to ever work overtime, I'd expect a serious conversation to ensue regarding my future with the company.
Riker himself worried he'd become complacent in BoBW, and it might have been nice to see some of that self-doubt come into play here, because there seems to be a real question of whether Our Heroes are resistant based on well-founded arguments, or whether they're resistant because they don't like having their captain replaced, or whether they're resistant because they in fact have become complacent and don't want to change the habits they've become accustomed to.
I earlier asked whether Jellico was set up by the writers to be a failure as a captain (at least relative to Picard), and now I'll turn that around and observe that perhaps Our Heroes were also set up to be failures as people Jellico realistically should have been able to better work with.
Nothing he did exhibited incompetence or treasonous conduct, and from the E-D's performance in the episodes there's no indication that any of Jellico's changes had any significant adverse impact. Hell, I really would have enjoyed a later reference by Picard to some of Jellico's changes constituting improvements, perhaps with either begrudging or belatedly complimentary agreement from the command staff.
At my job I occasionally have things come up that require me to work on weekends or stay late, or I get into debates about things where I end up on the losing side. Sometimes I have conflicts due to preexisting commitments or what-not and I let my manager know that. But if I started regularly refusing to do anything that I disagreed with or felt would be problematic or to ever work overtime, I'd expect a serious conversation to ensue regarding my future with the company.
Riker himself worried he'd become complacent in BoBW, and it might have been nice to see some of that self-doubt come into play here, because there seems to be a real question of whether Our Heroes are resistant based on well-founded arguments, or whether they're resistant because they don't like having their captain replaced, or whether they're resistant because they in fact have become complacent and don't want to change the habits they've become accustomed to.
I earlier asked whether Jellico was set up by the writers to be a failure as a captain (at least relative to Picard), and now I'll turn that around and observe that perhaps Our Heroes were also set up to be failures as people Jellico realistically should have been able to better work with.
The inverse example would be data in redemption. However Data was not hostile to the crew, did not micromanage, and made an order during a critical time with 2 minutes notice, not days before the event or hours before he even took command.
Data didn’t redecorate, whine to a councillor about his kids, or hide in his quarters.
Data didn’t redecorate, whine to a councillor about his kids, or hide in his quarters.
The moment Picard transfers command to Jellico, Jellico becomes boss.
If you want to seriously engage on the topic, drop the hyperbole.
Yep, but that was not the case when Jellico stepped off the transporter pad.
Anyway, it looks like this round-robin is starting up again so I'm out.
Which part of the quoted comment was hyperbole?
Yes comments about sending Jellico back on a hurtle or arresting for treason are hyperbole. She should never have been put in charge of the Enterprise given Riker was more than capable as proven during BOBW, but as he was his actions were awful
But like I said before this doesn't make sense. Not implementing an order out of principle because the new captain is not yet in command and the ceremony isn't until noon or whatever will only piss him off, so why do it? Especially because the shift change would happen after Jellico takes command so it wouldn't even interfere with how Picard runs things, it would just make for a smoother transition. In fact Jellico was giving the crew more time to adjust by making his wishes clear right away instead of waiting until after the ceremony and dropping the four shift rotation order then.
- Being hostile to the crew. He wasn't accommodating their feelings but that's not the same as being hostile. He became hostile towards Riker but that was a response to Riker undermining his authority.
- Micromanaging. He didn't do that.
- Redecorating. He pinned some drawings on the wall and had a fish tank removed from his ready room. Hardly worth mentioning.
- Whining to a counselor. They had a conversation.
- Hiding in his quarters. He didn't hide, he presumably worked and couldn't use the ready room because as people like to point out, he wasn't in command yet.
Riker proved he was the wrong guy for the mission because he immediately wanted to rescue Picard and then got pissed when he was told no despite not saving Picard at that point being the only sensible option.
And the fact that he returned to being an XO after BOBW instead of moving on to his own ship might also have played a part, you can only turn down being the CO so often until starfleet gets the message. If he doesn't want to take command why should they give him one?
So I just rewatched the first part of the episode on youtube: When the admiral tells the senior staff she's bringing in a new captain, it would be a Bad Idea to get all uppity and piss him off the moment he steps out of the transporter.
Even if the formal transfer of command hasn't happened yet; when the CO [designate] tells you to jump, you only say "How high"
I wish they'd had time to really let Jellico's personality and interactions with Riker settle; instead it feels like the writers opted for forced drama and making him the bad guy.
Even if the formal transfer of command hasn't happened yet; when the CO [designate] tells you to jump, you only say "How high"
I wish they'd had time to really let Jellico's personality and interactions with Riker settle; instead it feels like the writers opted for forced drama and making him the bad guy.
I thought the "let's drop the ranks" portion of their conversation was where they both spoke frankly/aired their grievances; would the request to (officially) go on a mission with Riker's rank reinstated still technically be considered part of that, ah, "clearing the air"?
The order he is giving is a procedural order, for when he will be in command, that very day. Dude is still a superior officer, coming in for a specific mission, regardless of whether the official ceremony has taken place yet. It's being issued as part of his upcoming mandate, & even the official transfer is only in a matter of a few hours away anyhow, if that. That would be a dumb hill to die on. "I refuse to issue any of your orders until I see you get the keys handed to you"?
Picard has already been put onto prepping his new assignment, & at no point is Will told he's running things in the interim. In VERY short order, this is Jellico's ship, and all he asked the guy to do was tell everybody we're adding an extra shift tonight, & get it ready (big suckfest coming) which he should've carried out directly after it was issued, but he didn't because he didn't want it to be done, given what his unadvised people had told him about it. They got no clue what the guy's got in store, & their objections could very well be moot anyhow (giving the upcoming reassigned crew) He was ignored from the jump.
And personally, I think he's using this order as a minor sample, to gauge the biggest unknown variable he's going to face, whether he can rely on the crew, & Riker fumbled that shit in the worst way, by deciding it shouldn't be carried out until he got his own input. It's a terrible way to make a 1st impression. It literally confirms every worst fear the incoming captain might have, that this guy is gonna buck him on any & every damn thing
And when he finally did have the keys, he was told, that plan isn't set up for tonight, & when he told him to get it set up, he got chest puffing & side eyeing to Picard for his trouble. Yeah. No good.
But you're missing the point that -- given that Jellico phrased it as something he wanted to do, not needed to do, Riker had no way of knowing that Jellico wasn't testing him to see if he would stand his ground and insist on airing his feedback before implimenting the order, rather the reality that Jellico was a petty tyrant with no sense of different "modes" for different settings as proved to be the case and the test was whether Riker was a "yes man marionette" or not (he isn't).
Why would he need to be told something that it is always the case... oh wait, because according to Jellico the First Officer is just his Chief Yes Man Servant not the second-in-command who has full authority to act in the Commanding Officer's absence.
He was written to fail. Riker is a hero character so the audience is more inclined to take his side.
What a captain says he'd like, vs wants, vs needs... it's all the same. It's an order to change how something is done on the ship. The language being softer? It's actually just trying to employ some politeness
In truth, when Riker asked Nechayev where Picard was, she told him he was reassigned with Bev & Worf. That's pretty cut & dry, whether it's officially logged into the ship's computer yet or not. She also plainly told him he's not the man for this command & that the ship is being remanded to someone who is.
So when that guy steps aboard, it's in everybody's best interest for Riker to treat him as such, directly. Looking for wiggle room, to get his way, is just not a good look. It's immediate failure to support his authority. The attitude is clear from go
I don't want you. I want either Picard, or in the absence there of, I want it to be me, like he made clear to Nechayev. (You should assume she made Jellico aware of that BTW)
That's literally my entire gripe with the whole episode lol.
Riker could ask Jellico for clarification, so he could understand what he has in mind - a good first officer should do exactly that - even if he doesn't get along with his new CO, he should be trying to anticipate what J-Co will need so that he can hand his captain a smoothly operated ship and not a bunch of grown up crybabies.
The crew complaining to Riker "this guy is so mean to us blah blah" didn't you just hear Necheyav say yesterday "we might be going to war with the fucking Kardashians"?? Like literally that's the entire point. Even if you don't understand the HOW, you already know the WHY.
Because CARDIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wouldn't say Jellico was written to fail, necessarily. I think he was written to challenge the audience's kneejerk reaction to anyone that doesn't vibe with the main cast. Star Trek is notorious for the trope of having characters, even others in Starfleet, who when they go against the main cast, there was usually a suspicious reason behind why (Badmirals & renegades and such)
However, here they're presenting a unique circumstance (for the show) which dares us to NOT simply assume that Riker being one of our valiant heroes means he is by default always right, when at odds with someone who isn't part of our gang. It's the ol' switcheroo, & a deliberate shift for TNG, toward the much more ambiguous characters of DS9, that the writers are way more fond of writing for.
It's a more realistic tale, because surely there'd be people who serve in Starfleet, that wouldn't be idyllically synergistic with "our" crew, (like we've come to expect) but that also aren't necessarily wrong for being so.
The problem for Jellico was that a section of the audience wasn't keen to interpret him that way, even though the intention (IMHO) was for us to challenge OUR biases. The reason we still debate him all these years later is because some of us choose to see the situation without the rose-colored glasses, we usually have about the main cast, & some don't. To them, the mere fact that "our" people don't like him IS the reason we shouldn't like him, that plus there's some of us who'd naturally not like dealing with someone like him. Its why a lot of us wouldn't like being rank officers. It's not for everybody
They deliberately wrote scenes that play antagonistically, & then cast the wonderful Ronny Cox, who is a GOAT level antagonist actor for that period, but that needn't necessarily mean Jellico is an antagonist by design. Did they do that to sucker you into just accepting him as one?
They suspiciously want you to not like this guy, the deck stacked against him from go... & why? For what reason? He made difficult demands of the crew in a crisis? They all do that. He wasn't willing to "give them a chance"? He outright says he doesn't have the luxury of getting to do that, in this situation. Maybe that's true.
Anyone willing to stop & objectively ask themselves "Is that possibly true?" is likely to see the crew with more objectivity after that. They are not being awesome right now... at least not until later, when the biggest obstacle to synergy is out of the way (Riker) The crew works wonderfully with Jellico after that, & succeed in their mission. He's even shown considering their opinions, like reinstating Riker to the pilot mission, on Geordi's recommendation.
I imagine he's seen as a wholly different guy on the Cairo. The whole of this situation is what's wrong here. That you bring in a guy to deal with it SHOULD feel wrong. So you shouldn't just assume it's all due to him
ok, well now I guess I gotta use that now lolSimilar threads
