Observations on Janice Lester's isolation room

[Christopher]

There's at least 2 Engine Rooms on the ship - in The Naked Time Scotty calls out over the intercom: "Engineers, man your stations. Engine rooms, report. Cycling station, report. This will be an emergency restart of engines."
And I think it's reasonable to assume that there's one in each hull, or the crew would be really screwed if they ever had to separate the saucer!

I also don't think it's a stretch that they would be similar in appearance - they are both engineering control rooms after all and Starfleet does love its modular equipment! For example, those large wall consoles were seen in the Engine Room, Phaser Control and Auxiliary Control - why shouldn't other equipment have shared duties? The function of the large tube structure was never clearly defined, after all.

I don't think it's likely that the control rooms for warp engines and impulse engines would look alike. The very nature of the drive systems is extremely different, and impulse drives are rather simple in comparison. Presumably the impulse engine control room would be smaller and have different controls and readouts. Also, we know for a fact that the large structures in the middle of the engine room floor provide access to the dilithium crystals. It makes no sense that identical structures would be found in the impulse engineering room.

And let's look at the precedents of other starship designs. In ENT, the movies, TNG, VGR, etc., the impulse engines are always controlled from the same main engineering room as the warp engines. It stands to reason that if there are separate impulse control rooms, they're auxiliary facilities that don't get a lot of use. So there's no reason they'd be just as big as the main engine room.

 

[Mytran]

And the Starbase 11 computer center!

I knew there was one I'd missed, thanks!

I don't think it's likely that the control rooms for warp engines and impulse engines would look alike. The very nature of the drive systems is extremely different, and impulse drives are rather simple in comparison. Presumably the impulse engine control room would be smaller and have different controls and readouts. Also, we know for a fact that the large structures in the middle of the engine room floor provide access to the dilithium crystals. It makes no sense that identical structures would be found in the impulse engineering room.

And let's look at the precedents of other starship designs. In ENT, the movies, TNG, VGR, etc., the impulse engines are always controlled from the same main engineering room as the warp engines. It stands to reason that if there are separate impulse control rooms, they're auxiliary facilities that don't get a lot of use. So there's no reason they'd be just as big as the main engine room.

Well we did see two different versions of the Engine Room (one single storey, one 2-storey) and the buttons on the control consoles changed often. The large power unit thingies would appear or dissappear depending on the needs of the plot and the double-triangular-doohicky in the middle of the room in Season Two suddenly manifested a dilithium crystal hatch in Season Three.
Was this the same Engine Room, undergoing structural and electronic changes on a frequent basis, or were we seeing different facilities which performed similar functions, perhaps acting as a reduncancy for one another?

I supose it depends on how literally you want to take the sets as presented onscreen - although if we take them at face value then we must accept that the Briefing Room, Rec Room, Chapel, Life Support and others are all the same size and all have identical angled wall struts. Not impossible, I suppose...

 

[Christopher]

I supose it depends on how literally you want to take the sets as presented onscreen - although if we take them at face value then we must accept that the Briefing Room, Rec Room, Chapel, Life Support and others are all the same size and all have identical angled wall struts. Not impossible, I suppose...

Given how differently TOS/TAS, the movies, and the Secret Hideout shows have interpreted 23rd-century tech, I think it's best to assume that we're seeing differing artistic interpretations of the same things. I mean, SNW: "A Quality of Mercy" was meant to show how "Balance of Terror" would have played out with Pike instead of Kirk, but it used the SNW bridge set and uniforms, as well as different Romulan makeup and ship designs. That would seem to confirm that we're seeing the same bridge "played" by different soundstage sets, just as Spock or Uhura is the same person played by different actors.

Granted, though, SNW's engineering set is too completely unlike TOS's for me to take it as a different interpretation of the same set. I presume there was a refit in between. But the various presentations of the engine room in TOS were probably just a TV production refining its set design as it went.

 

[BK613]

Good points! Although if the armoury was on Deck 2, 3 or 4 Scott's statement is still correct.

Just remembered that Scotty had talked about it too. And add Deck 5 to that list since right after that:

KIRK: What the blazes is going on?​

SPOCK: Scans indicate that our forces and those of the Klingons are exactly equal at thirty eight each. The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.​

Since Spock is talking about the available forces, I'd assume that everyone else (the 392) are on Deck 8 and below. As to why they were down there, the Alien aided by the fact the ship was still at general quarters, maybe?
(sorry about the belated post. RL, you know)

 

[Mytran]

Given how differently TOS/TAS, the movies, and the Secret Hideout shows have interpreted 23rd-century tech, I think it's best to assume that we're seeing differing artistic interpretations of the same things.

Surely some of the designs were suppposed to represent different rooms though? The engine core room from TAS, for example - different appearance AND different function to the regular Engine Room we saw in TOS...

Just remembered that Scotty had talked about it too. And add Deck 5 to that list since right after that:

KIRK: What the blazes is going on?​

SPOCK: Scans indicate that our forces and those of the Klingons are exactly equal at thirty eight each. The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.​

Spock's statement would suggest that there's a direct ladder from Deck 5 to portside Deck 7, which is possible.
But if the DOTD Engine Room is indeed in the secondary hull then there would also have to be a direct ladder from portside Deck 7 to down there (and only there) plus a second, separate direct route from Deck 6 to the same specific location.
It all just gets a bit weird for my liking

Since Spock is talking about the available forces, I'd assume that everyone else (the 392) are on Deck 8 and below. As to why they were down there, the Alien aided by the fact the ship was still at general quarters, maybe?
(sorry about the belated post. RL, you know)

On an eleven deck saucer, decks 8-11 don't contain a lot of volume and there's a fair bit of evidence that the saucer has even less decks than that!
That's why tend to favour the secondary hull as the best location for the 392 crew

 

[BK613]

That's why tend to favour the secondary hull as the best location for the 392 crew

I was including the secondary hull in my Deck 8 and below. That would put the cutoff at the top of the dorsal/pylon in addition to what ever else is happening in the saucer.

It all just gets a bit weird for my liking

Kinda frustrating to me, in that we have our best episode of ship location references in relation to each other and taken at face value, they don't always make sense with regards to the plot.

 

[Christopher]

Surely some of the designs were suppposed to represent different rooms though? The engine core room from TAS, for example - different appearance AND different function to the regular Engine Room we saw in TOS...

I'm not being so granular. I'm just saying that, in general, not every change in the appearance of a set is meant to represent an in-universe change, any more than the recasting of an actor means that the character changed appearance. Sometimes a recasting is handwaved as plastic surgery or something, but other times the character's in-universe appearance is presumed to be the same (for instance, Spock Prime recognizing Kelvin Kirk and Scotty on sight in the 2009 film). So the same goes for sets. Not every change is diegetic.

 

[Mytran]

I was including the secondary hull in my Deck 8 and below. That would put the cutoff at the top of the dorsal/pylon in addition to what ever else is happening in the saucer.

No disagreement - my intention was just to confirm that the most likely location would be the secondary hull rather than anywhere on the saucer.

I'm not being so granular. I'm just saying that, in general, not every change in the appearance of a set is meant to represent an in-universe change, any more than the recasting of an actor means that the character changed appearance. Sometimes a recasting is handwaved as plastic surgery or something, but other times the character's in-universe appearance is presumed to be the same (for instance, Spock Prime recognizing Kelvin Kirk and Scotty on sight in the 2009 film). So the same goes for sets. Not every change is diegetic.

Fair enough - but I don't think that such an interpretation of the visuals rules out an Engine Room in the saucer either

 

[Christopher]

Fair enough - but I don't think that such an interpretation of the visuals rules out an Engine Room in the saucer either

As I've said, no other Starfleet ship we've seen has had a separate impulse engine room, so if any exists, it's probably a rarely-used auxiliary. "Doesn't rule out" does not prove that something is probable or reasonable to believe in. I can't rule out the possibility that there's a priceless painting hidden behind the wall in my apartment, but there very probably isn't.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Spock's statement that the Klingons control Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7 is made moments before the Klingon's capture Engineering.

Given the loose fit or the necessary vagueness of everything being said, that's awfully consistent with Franz Joseph putting Engineering in the saucer on Deck 7 aft.

Also note The Making of Star Trek, Part II Chapter 2, paragraph 4, on page 171 of the original paperback edition. It says in so many words that Headquarters for the Engineering Division is located "at the bottom rear end of the saucer." Franz Joseph devoured this book and followed it faithfully, because it was as close to canon as anything off-air could possibly be. It states the show's intention.

Edit: just leafing through my old TMOST reminds me of how it felt to be a kid in the early Seventies, when Star Trek seemed like the greatest thing (never mind TV show) that ever existed. Anything little thing you could find on Star Trek was exciting, and this book was mind blowing.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Add it to the list, along with the shuttle ceiling being higher inside than out, the TMP rec deck not fitting in the saucer, the TMP forced-perspective engine room corridor that would stretch beyond the deflector dish, and the Delta Flyer being too big to fit through Voyager's shuttle bay doors. (And don't get me started on Discovery's turbolift hammerspace.)

How about the fact that the Enterprise-D is a lot larger than the TMP Enterprise, yet both were shown going through the spacedock doors with about the same amount of clearance room?

Engine room: would The Doomsday Machine figure into that, when they are talking about using the Constellation's warp engine controls for the impulse engines?

As someone who has not yet had the opportunity to visit Ticonderoga, how much of the interior of the ship did they reproduce in exacting detail?

 

[Just a Bill]

Spock's statement would suggest that there's a direct ladder from Deck 5 to portside Deck 7

Or, it suggests that 7 Port is not part of either of the 38-troop territories; it's lumped in with 8 and below. The alien simply closed whichever bulkheads were necessary to even up the teams, and the non-Klingon half of 7 would have added too many Feds. 7P was thus grouped with decks 8 and below, and anyone who was in it was part of the sidelined 392.

For me, this was good dialog because it avoided a credibility problem. Some of us would have found it a bit hard to believe that the top x decks of the ship would have just happened to contain exactly enough Starfleet personnel to equal the Klingons. But knowing that the alien had the option to cut off partial decks means the objection never comes up.

 

[Mytran]

As I've said, no other Starfleet ship we've seen has had a separate impulse engine room, so if any exists, it's probably a rarely-used auxiliary. "Doesn't rule out" does not prove that something is probable or reasonable to believe in. I can't rule out the possibility that there's a priceless painting hidden behind the wall in my apartment, but there very probably isn't.

True, but in the case of the saucer engineering room, there are inidications that it exists beyond a mere theoretical possibly.

Engine room: would The Doomsday Machine figure into that, when they are talking about using the Constellation's warp engine controls for the impulse engines?

You make an excellent point. Scotty is standing in front of the large tube structure when he says that and appears to be manipulating it to force the Impulse Engines to power up (rather faster than he would prefer). The various exchanges between Scotty and Kirk make it plain that power from the warp drive is impossible, so these tubes have to be closely connected to the Impulse Engines.
Perhaps they are the rarely mentioned "main energisers" which would justify have more than one set on board.

SCOTT: Captain, I've checked the engines. The warp drive is a hopeless pile of junk. The impulse engines are not too badly off. We ought to be able to do something with them.​

...​

SCOTT: Captain, the impulse engines' control circuits are fused solid.​

KIRK: What about the warp drive control circuits?​

SCOTT: Aye, we can cross-connect the controls, but it'll make the ship almost impossible for one man to handle.​

KIRK: You worry about your miracles, Scotty, I'll worry about mine. Get to work.​

...​

SCOTT: Controls are all hooked up, sir. We should have some power for you soon.​

...​

KIRK: Scotty, where's that power?​

SCOTT: Coming, sir. If I push these impulse engines too hard in the condition they're in, they'll blow apart.​

KIRK: Scotty, push it right to the edge. This ship has got to manoeuver.​

Or, it suggests that 7 Port is not part of either of the 38-troop territories; it's lumped in with 8 and below. The alien simply closed whichever bulkheads were necessary to even up the teams, and the non-Klingon half of 7 would have added too many Feds. 7P was thus grouped with decks 8 and below, and anyone who was in it was part of the sidelined 392.

For me, this was good dialog because it avoided a credibility problem. Some of us would have found it a bit hard to believe that the top x decks of the ship would have just happened to contain exactly enough Starfleet personnel to equal the Klingons. But knowing that the alien had the option to cut off partial decks means the objection never comes up.

I like that, it requires one fewer plot-specific ladder shaft!

 

[Christopher]

True, but in the case of the saucer engineering room, there are inidications that it exists beyond a mere theoretical possibly.

The only canonical indication I'm aware of is that one line about the "lower levels" in "The Day of the Dove," and that episode explicitly shows that engineering is in the secondary hull. I see no reason to lend any credence to the hypothesis.

You make an excellent point. Scotty is standing in front of the large tube structure when he says that and appears to be manipulating it to force the Impulse Engines to power up (rather faster than he would prefer). The various exchanges between Scotty and Kirk make it plain that power from the warp drive is impossible, so these tubes have to be closely connected to the Impulse Engines.

I see no reason to conclude that. Again, every other Trek series has shown warp and impulse engines being controlled from the same single engine room. It seems illogical to insist that TOS had to be the one and only time in Starfleet history that it worked differently.

I mean, you're quoting dialogue from "The Doomsday Machine," an episode where Kirk operated the Constellation from auxiliary control instead of the bridge. Surely it's contradictory to use the same episode as "evidence" that Scotty could not have been controlling the impulse engines from the warp engineering room.

 

[BK613]

I like that, it requires one fewer plot-specific ladder shaft!

The episode is replete with ladder-centric fun, isn't it?
Like when Scotty comes up the three-sided ladder outside Engineering (from the armory?) implying a deck below Engineering is accessible.

https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season3/311-day-of-the-dove/day-of-the-dove-362.jpg

Or, you know, where they're standing when they're addressing the Entity...

https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season3/311-day-of-the-dove/day-of-the-dove-865.jpg

...and what they are looking at. A second ladder in Engineering, who knew?

https://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/screencaps/season3/311-day-of-the-dove/day-of-the-dove-866.jpg