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Poll Is Star Trek: Khan khanon?

Should Star Trek: Khan be considered khanon?


  • Total voters
    28
Count me with the people who don't think this has to be seen as a tie-in. It's not licenced. IMDB lists Star Trek TV writers as its writers and Star Trek TV executive producers among its credited producers.

I seem to remember some of the people who hated Discovery tried to argue it wasn't canon on the grounds that it wasn't a TV show, but a streaming show. And that was rightly seen as silly. So... if the people who make the TV shows decide to change a Star Trek TV series into Star Trek without visuals, is that a tie-in, or primary Star Trek on another platform? It's not the same situation as something like the Pocket Captain Sulu tapes from the 1990s.
 
It’s not a tie-in. It’s an official CBS/Paramount production. The question about canonicity arose because in the past, TPTB had always said that only on-screen material (TV shows, movies) was considered canon. This would be the first time that a non-on-screen work could have that distinction.

Yeah, that's right. All the previous audio works went through the book publishing (or similar) license. This one didn't
 
Thank you, Digits, and welcome to all the members who don’t usually visit here.

This is certainly new ground for us in this forum. Usually our canon discussions are much more straightforward.

“Is [random book or comic] canon?”

“No.”

“But [some counter-argument].”

“Yeah, still no.”

But anyway, enjoy the discussion!

Being a professional audiobook narrator, I have an affinity for this project. :)
 
In fact I’m surprised everyone isn’t on the same page about this.

I would guess that would be attributable to something @Dukhat mentioned earlier in the thread: before now, the mantra was always “only what’s on-screen is canon”. Since this is the first actual Paramount Star Trek production that’s not on-screen, it stands to reason there might be some confusion.
 
Why a we calling it a tie-in? Is this not a Trek show that just happens to be delivered in the audio format? Would we cast aside Lower Decks because it's a cartoon? Isn't that effectively saying audio-plays are some sort of "lesser than"

Okay, granted, looking into it now, I see it is from CBS Studios' podcast division and Secret Hideout. Still, it's a side production in a different medium than usual. (The Lower Decks analogy doesn't work because that's a television series on the same streaming service as the live action shows.) And its writers are Kirsten Beyer, who's now a Trek producer but started out as a tie-in novelist and co-writes or oversees the Secret Hideout tie-ins, and David Mack, who's usually a tie-in author (although I know he's trying to break into film/TV). So it seems kind of borderline to me.


It’s not a tie-in. It’s an official CBS/Paramount production. The question about canonicity arose because in the past, TPTB had always said that only on-screen material (TV shows, movies) was considered canon. This would be the first time that a non-on-screen work could have that distinction.

Okay, first, all licensed tie-ins are official. The word "official" doesn't mean "canonical," it just means it's authorized by the property owners to exist and be sold for profit. Licensed Star Trek action figures and bedspreads and Hallmark ornaments are official. It's a business and legal term, not a storytelling term. Like "canon," it's a word that people read far too much meaning into.

Second, it wouldn't be the first time, because as I said, Jeri Taylor's Voyager novels were considered canonical when she wrote them, since she was the showrunner at the time. But they were ignored after she left the showrunner job. Canon status is never a guarantee, especially with supplementary works that have a much smaller audience than the core works (ask any Star Wars Expanded Universe fan). Which is why it's a trivial thing to make a fuss over. Even if they do call it canon, it still means nothing.


Count me with the people who don't think this has to be seen as a tie-in. It's not licenced. IMDB lists Star Trek TV writers as its writers and Star Trek TV executive producers among its credited producers.

I don't agree that something can't be a tie-in if it's from the owners of the original work. I mean, Disney owns Marvel and publishes Star Wars comics as well as making the movies and shows, but the comics are still considered tie-ins, albeit "canonical" ones (the kind of "canon" that gets contradicted by new screen canon as casually as non-canon tie-ins, making it a meaningless label). For that matter, the Star Wars and Marvel Cinematic Universe TV shows can be considered tie-ins to the movie series. The term just means something that ties into something else. Like "canon" or "official," it is merely a description of what something is, not an assessment of its worth or validity.
 
Since this is a official release from the studios, writers, and producers of the TV shows I'm pretty much equal to the shows.

Again, CBS/Paramount are the ones that dictate what’s canon or not. And while this is an official CBS/Paramount production, not a third-party tie-in, they could still say that it’s not canon. Personally, I have no idea why they’d do that at this point, because they seem to be treating it just like any other television production, only it’s in audio format. I’m sure enough people will be asking this question when it comes out and CBS will give their official stance.
 
Since this is a official release from the studios, writers, and producers of the TV shows I'm pretty much equal to the shows.

As I said, all licensed tie-ins are official. And a number of them have been written by writers or producers of the shows.

What matters, really, is audience size. Works with bigger audiences and bigger profit potential are never bound by works with smaller audiences and profits. So even "canonical" works with smaller audiences, like Star Wars comics and novels, get contradicted by new TV or film productions. It wouldn't make sense for their creators to be restricted in their storytelling freedom by consistency to a story that only a small fraction of their audience will have seen -- or heard.

So the question is, how large is the audience for a podcast? Is it closer to the audience size for a novel or comic, or closer to the audience size for a TV show? If it's the former, then the creators of future productions will probably ignore it, regardless of who made it.

Although I still think it's unlikely that anything relating to Ceti Alpha V will ever come up again in Trek canon anyway, so it's probably an academic question.


Again, CBS/Paramount are the ones that dictate what’s canon or not.

Really, the creators of canon are the people who think the least about canon, because what they create is the real deal automatically; they don't have to declare it, because it just is. Like I said, the matter only comes up with regard to supplemental works, in answer to the audience's questions about whether they "count" or not.
 
So the question is, how large is the audience for a podcast? Is it closer to the audience size for a novel or comic, or closer to the audience size for a TV show? If it's the former, then the creators of future productions will probably ignore it, regardless of who made it.

Which leads me to the next question: do the show's producers have any kind of plan in mind for following up with similar productions if this does well? Or is this a one-off because it was intended once to be a TV series, and they think that will generate audience interest in the Khan story specifically?

Although I still think it's unlikely that anything relating to Ceti Alpha V will ever come up again in Trek canon anyway, so it's probably an academic question.

Good point. It's ancient history for Starfleet Academy and future history for SNW, as the Botany Bay won't be found for a few years yet.
 
As I said, all licensed tie-ins are official. And a number of them have been written by writers or producers of the shows.
Yeah, but most of the tie-ins just have one or two of the people from the shows involved, and are usually just released by CBS Consumer Products, this on the other hand is coming from CBS Studios, Secret Hideout, and Rodenberry Productions, and has Alex Kurtzman, Trevor Roth, and Eugene Rodenberry as producers, so that's pretty much the whole core production team for the TV shows.
What matters, really, is audience size. Works with bigger audiences and bigger profit potential are never bound by works with smaller audiences and profits. So even "canonical" works with smaller audiences, like Star Wars comics and novels, get contradicted by new TV or film productions. It wouldn't make sense for their creators to be restricted in their storytelling freedom by consistency to a story that only a small fraction of their audience will have seen -- or heard.
I'm pretty sure the audience size for something like this is going to be a lot bigger than a book or comic, but probably not quite as big as TV show or movie.
 
do the show's producers have any kind of plan in mind for following up with similar productions if this does well? Or is this a one-off because it was intended once to be a TV series, and they think that will generate audience interest in the Khan story specifically?

Essentially they are testing the waters every time they try something new. If it finds an audience, there will be more. Remember when the first SCE eBooks were promoted as "never available in book form"?

I recall that at one point, Simon & Schuster's license was strictly for audio books, not anything resembling multi-voice scripted drama. So we got the three "Captain Sulu" original audios, as a test of audience acceptance, but nothing like "Big Finish" was doing with "Doctor Who" and "Blake's Seven". Certainly, the "Big Finish" productions have been around a long time now.

I was speaking of the guy here in the thread who said that if George Takei was involved that he was not interested, not George himself.

Ok, sorry. I was truly puzzled...
 
Which leads me to the next question: do the show's producers have any kind of plan in mind for following up with similar productions if this does well? Or is this a one-off because it was intended once to be a TV series, and they think that will generate audience interest in the Khan story specifically?

As Therin says, it's probably a trial balloon and there will be more if it does well, It's actually the second Secret Hideout-era audio production, after Picard: No Man's Land, though that was from Simon & Schuster Audio.

There have been a lot of ideas for potential TV series that got cancelled and never heard from again -- the Star Trek: Final Frontier animated series pitch from some years back is one example. So they probably wouldn't have felt any obligation to make it just because of that, not unless they were already interested in the possibilities of the audio format anyway.
 
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