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Enterprise-A Questions

BoBW: [...]

The Sound of Her Voice: [...]

TVH: [...]

One of those examples is not like the others, though.

For 2006, Chevrolet used the new headlights off of the Monte Carlo for the Impala, which was funny because the sculpted plastic didn't quite match the Impala's lines so they stuck out strangely . . . and then the Impala outlasted the Monte Carlo.

Those headlights are parts that, by themselves, do not make the vehicle they came from identifiable. However, make it a headlight and a Monte Carlo fender, and you're on to something. We can try to conjure an image of some other Monte Carlo derivative in our minds, but if one of our suspects drives a Monte Carlo his lawyer would look awfully silly saying "no, no, it could be a remarkable coincidence due to the reuse of the headlight *and* the fender on yet another derivative model that we don't know about."
 
You’re saying that it would be a coincidence that what we saw on screen could be anything but a refit Connie based solely on seeing 1/3 of what looks like a refit Connie secondary hull. I’m saying that it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that, but it’s not 100% a given. Because we have no idea if Starfleet built other ship classes using that component.

Or if you’re referring to that nacelle and pylon from TVH, same difference.
 
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Is there a program that can turn a physical model scan into blueprints?

I’m pretty sure it’s a standard feature of professional-grade 3D scanners. They’re intended for architecture, construction, and engineering, so tight integration with CAD software is probably a given.

My old job involved processing 3D scans of building interiors, the program we used had a feature that automatically used the point cloud data to generate orthographic floor-plans (and I believe I could’ve gotten a side-view as well, it just wasn’t necessary for our purposes).

I think in ST VI they used a 1/537 but made it more accurate—no 3D print aftermarket bits there—that deserves a tale.

IIRC, they used the same “smoothie” TMP 1/537 kit built for TWOK for all the following TOS movies (except TVH, which didn’t have any distant shots of the ship that required a smaller model). There are some tell-tale details you can use to recognize it, but the two biggest shots it’s used in are probably the first shot of the ship flying towards Spacedock in TSFS, and the shot of it on the Excelsior viewscreen during the space battle in TUC.
 
They did not use a model kit for distance shots in TMP and TWOK. They used a specially designed model that was smaller. And they certainly did not use a model kit in TUC.
 
spaceframe that had already been partially rebuilt to TMP spec
Interesting thought, because in a way, the Bridges used in ST:5 and ST:6 have some concepts in common TOS, with the large black areas, red trim, and areas that light up for use.
This makes the most sense, broadly speaking, though the rapid bridge module swap may suggest the ST4 bridge was an older unit.
I almost think that the Bridge seen briefly in Star Trek 4 should be ignored and assumed to be the one seen in Star Trek V. In a way, this supports your idea of an older but unfinished ship.
So, assuming the ST:5 or ST:6 version was original to the ship, it could be a design that was created to make TMP-style equipment work with existing ships. It might also explain why we almost never saw any TOS-style bridge equipment after TMP, no matter how old the ship was supposed to be. The possible exception would be Kasidy Yate's freighter.

The appearance of the ST:3 Excelsior bridge also seems to move forward towards the ST:5 and ST:6 style to me,, rather than back toward TOS.
It could have been longer to build the ship: we don't know how long that it took to launch the ship in Star Trek 5 after it was (at least) briefly tested in Star Trek 4. We also don't know how long there was between the trial and that brief flight. A stardate of 8390 for Star Trek 4 and 8454.1 for Star Trek 5 suggest about 13 months between the movies.
As a hypothetical, what would have been the plan for the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) and her crew had they not gone to investigate Khan?
See my comments below. What is interesting also is the question of whether a 1701-A would ever have existed, or would the next Enterprise have been an Excelsior-class Enterprise-B, and the letter A not be used?
Was she just in rotation as a training ship and thus they were planning on sending her back out for another five-year mission once these cadets graduated?
Even though the chronology says the ship was a training vessel at that time, I think the dialogue and the planning of the story better suggest that Spock was training a crew to be his crew on another 5-year mission, similar to what we see in a different universe, where Pike doing something similar in the 2009 film.
a date for the entire class’s decommissioning
I read a lot of debate on this thread about the question of whether there was a Constitution-class ship at Wolf-359. Imagine if it had been the Enterprise-A, pulled from the museum to fight, wrecked in the battle. The emotional weight would be huge. I suppose that if the ship was partially intact, that could be true while it was put back in the museum...
 
Really guys, the dick measuring contest is not necessary. The TMP refit was used as that ship, but in-universe it doesn’t have to be a TMP refit because we only saw a tiny bit of it on screen. Same deal with the ship parts seen in BoBW and the Olympia in DS9. I’m not sure what else is necessary to talk about, much less internet-argue about.

You’re saying that it would be a coincidence that what we saw on screen could be anything but a refit Connie based solely on seeing 1/3 of what looks like a refit Connie secondary hull. I’m saying that it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that, but it’s not 100% a given. Because we have no idea if Starfleet built other ship classes using that component.

Or if you’re referring to that nacelle and pylon from TVH, same difference.

Agreed. For my part, I like the idea that the nacelle in question was probably another Constitution type ship and was a reuse of the Enterprise model, but I also agree that based on the limited portion we can see, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Constitution in-universe. I was looking at the TVH clip in question earlier to get a better perpective, and there's a similar Constitution type nacelle at the very beginning which is presumably attached to some other ship. We can't seen enough of that one either.

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Agreed. For my part, I like the idea that the nacelle in question was probably another Constitution type ship and was a reuse of the Enterprise model, but I also agree that based on the limited portion we can see, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Constitution in-universe. I was looking at the TVH clip in question earlier to get a better perpective, and there's a similar Constitution type nacelle at the very beginning which is presumably attached to some other ship. We can't seen enough of that one either.

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Actually, that nacelle you mention doesn’t seem to be attached to a refit Connie in the same way. Because we would have seen the back of the saucer in that shot, but instead there’s nothing.
 
What is interesting also is the question of whether a 1701-A would ever have existed, or would the next Enterprise have been an Excelsior-class Enterprise-B, and the letter A not be used?

I think Starfleet was eventually going to retire the 1701, and christen the new Excelsior class ship the 1701-A. Because if that wasn’t the plan, then the Connie that became Kirk’s new ship would have been named Enterprise, but would have had a registry of 1780 or something.

I read a lot of debate on this thread about the question of whether there was a Constitution-class ship at Wolf-359. Imagine if it had been the Enterprise-A, pulled from the museum to fight, wrecked in the battle. The emotional weight would be huge. I suppose that if the ship was partially intact, that could be true while it was put back in the museum...

Something changed between BoBW and later DS9. Because the loss of 40 ships seemed like a real setback for Starfleet, while just five or so years later, we know that there are thousands of ships in each war fleet, and many of those are outdated Excelsior and Miranda classes. What does this have to do with pulling a ship out of a museum to fight the Borg? Well, the absurdness of that idea aside, Starfleet should have had plenty of ships to help out with the Borg without resorting to pulling a ship out of a museum.
 
Actually, that nacelle you mention doesn’t seem to be attached to a refit Connie in the same way. Because we would have seen the back of the saucer in that shot, but instead there’s nothing.
Not if what we are seeing is the inboard side of the port nacelle—and if that were the starboard nacelle, as you imply, the port nacelle would be visible beyond it. Assuming it was a Connie, of course.
 
Not if what we are seeing is the inboard side of the port nacelle—and if that were the starboard nacelle, as you imply, the port nacelle would be visible beyond it. Assuming it was a Connie, of course.

It’s the outer nacelle. The nacelle grille lines are thinner on the outside, like this one is. And since the port nacelle isn’t visible, it could be argued that there’s just one nacelle in the shot, implying a different ship than a Connie.
 
Actually, that nacelle you mention doesn’t seem to be attached to a refit Connie in the same way. Because we would have seen the back of the saucer in that shot, but instead there’s nothing.

That's true. I had wondered if it were attached to a Miranda type model, but it seems like we'd see more of the hull there as well and maybe part of a dorsal pylon connector in that case. Maybe it's just a random nacelle floating in Spacedock? :biggrin: :rommie:
 
It’s the outer nacelle. The nacelle grille lines are thinner on the outside, like this one is. And since the port nacelle isn’t visible, it could be argued that there’s just one nacelle in the shot, implying a different ship than a Connie.
Fair enough. I'd forgotten that.
 
The nacelle is just superimposed into that shot, just like the Oberth is. So they probably just took a photo of the Connie model and used only the top of the nacelle without using the rest of the model. Unfortunately this messes with the actual proportions of the ship, which is why it looks like there’s nothing else around it.
 
They did not use a model kit for distance shots in TMP and TWOK. They used a specially designed model that was smaller. And they certainly did not use a model kit in TUC.

The TMP model wasn't used again after that film, and its fate is unknown.

The AMT/Ertl 1/537 kit being built for TWOK was described by Don Dow in the Cinefex issue on TWOK (#18); "In fact we used one of the AMT kits to build this little model of the Enterprise, which has about a twelve inch diameter dome. We actually put lights in it and used it in instances where we had to be far away from the ship. With the big model, you can't get too far away and make it look far away – it always looks big. So we used that one for anything where we wanted the ship real small."

The Christie's auction listing claimed that the same model was used for all of ILM's Trek movies, though we know that's not iron-clad from the Enterprise-C mix-up.

The tell-tales are the impulse dome is unlit, very tall, and very spherical, and the windows for the Rec Deck (and the ones opposite them) at the rear of the saucer are unlit. There are a couple shots I'm sure about, there's one that's frequently believed to be the small model in TUC, but looking closely at the shot in 4K, I'm becoming more confident that it's actually the hero model.

In TWOK
TWOK_Small_Model.jpg

In TSFS
TSFS_Small_Model.jpg

BTS photo from TSFS
USS_Enterprise_small_AMT_studio_model_on_set_for_blue-screen_filming_at_ILM_by_Assistant_Camer...jpg

Probably not actually the small model in TUC, I should probably swap out the image saying it is on MA with one that's definitely the small model
TUC_Prob_Not_Small_Model.jpg

From the Christie's catalog
USS_Enterprise_ILM_AMT_studio_model.jpg
 
The TMP model wasn't used again after that film, and its fate is unknown.

The AMT/Ertl 1/537 kit being built for TWOK was described by Don Dow in the Cinefex issue on TWOK (#18); "In fact we used one of the AMT kits to build this little model of the Enterprise, which has about a twelve inch diameter dome. We actually put lights in it and used it in instances where we had to be far away from the ship. With the big model, you can't get too far away and make it look far away – it always looks big. So we used that one for anything where we wanted the ship real small."

The Christie's auction listing claimed that the same model was used for all of ILM's Trek movies, though we know that's not iron-clad from the Enterprise-C mix-up.

The tell-tales are the impulse dome is unlit, very tall, and very spherical, and the windows for the Rec Deck (and the ones opposite them) at the rear of the saucer are unlit. There are a couple shots I'm sure about, there's one that's frequently believed to be the small model in TUC, but looking closely at the shot in 4K, I'm becoming more confident that it's actually the hero model.

In TWOK
View attachment 47811

In TSFS
View attachment 47809

BTS photo from TSFS
View attachment 47808

Probably not actually the small model in TUC, I should probably swap out the image saying it is on MA with one that's definitely the small model
View attachment 47810

From the Christie's catalog
View attachment 47807

Ah, ok. I knew they built the small model for TMP when it flies over V’Ger, but I thought they also used it for TWOK and TSFS.
 
That's just nonsense, through and through. If two Coke cans could make the point, a point to which you have acquiesced, then the question you ask below after like six continuing posts answers itself:



QED.



Oh noes!1! The front linear vent we aren't even discussing didn't extend quite far enough up the pylon, which has jack to do with the point about gross detail of a larger area! We're doomed!



The model is publicly available and you have demonstrated that you can deal with 3-D models in other posts. Prove that the pylon is screwed up if it matters so much to you, but recognize the irrelevance. It was more than accurate enough to illustrate the point I was making (in lieu of Coke cans), and what started as a foolish attempt to evade that reality is now just unintended comedy.

I'm sorry you're so upset, but that does not justify crap like this:



Again, you were merely trying to evade the facts, which I was too polite to directly state at the time. Now that you've lost the debate (for it was clearly a debate in your mind, given the continuing confrontationalism I'd been seeking to avoid), you're trying to recover some scrap of something in your mind via this nitpicky nonsense. It's the equivalent of speeding, being caught speeding, admitting to speeding, paying the fine, but coming up to the cop and having a tirade about how you were really sixteen miles per hour over the limit and not seventeen and his radar gun is invalid because it might be off by 1%.

Nobody cares, but it would be much wiser to stop antagonizing the officer. Sure, trolling a cop to try to get a reaction out of him or her in order to mine for a city lawsuit or firing is a thing, but nobody likes that guy.



Again, nonsense. I already pointed out that the pylon-to-nacelle angle does not match, which you ignored, and you basically ignore the greater fore-to-aft length issue here, too. I thought you said you were detail-oriented and that the Wiley model was unusable? Here you're suddenly willing to toss in whatever inaccuracies and don't care, even hoping to hide them in angled view, and even after I pointed that out already. That's just embarrassing self-contradiction.



Oh yes, it is clear that we most certainly would. The vent is a feature on the rear of the pylon, not the pylon itself. You know this.

But, the heel-digging gets worse:



Again... dude, just stop. You claimed the Constitution side was based on BTS info, and I replied "It's not just the behind-the-scenes argument. If we had a saucer and neck only, for example, we couldn't automatically claim Constitution because the Jupp exists." You replied to this with the utterly nonsensical "That sounds suspiciously like a behind-the-scenes argument. :D"

So after I literally just noted not-BTS and gave an example, you're all 'BTS! LOL!'.

That's just a baffling response, especially with the emoticon following it up like something was achieved with great amusement. Such a troubling level of reading comprehension matches your claim of contradiction on my part, I'd say.

Anyway, I'm going to grant you the mercy of stopping here. You can keep trying to throw mud and shade as you like, but I am not interested in satisfying masochism.

Good day.

Hey @DSG2k, if I've upset you then my apologies. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
 
From the Christie's catalog
View attachment 47807

That one doesn't look as bad as some AMT/ERTL models. I'm guessing something happened to the mold at some point because some of them have a bridge dome that is abnormally large looking. See:

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The main issue I could see with that is that the side view from ST6 would typically be the best shot for scaling elements of the ship, but as the ERTL model that gets iffy . . . unless this one is just more precise.
 
That one doesn't look as bad as some AMT/ERTL models. I'm guessing something happened to the mold at some point because some of them have a bridge dome that is abnormally large looking. See:

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The main issue I could see with that is that the side view from ST6 would typically be the best shot for scaling elements of the ship, but as the ERTL model that gets iffy . . . unless this one is just more precise.
Yes, it's an absurd idea, but it was worth imagining :)
 
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