DS9 for those who don't necessarily love DS9?

[Gaith]

I've long been interested in checking out DS9, because I've heard from a lot of smart people that it’s the best-written and most complex Trek series, as well as the most serialized, and, hey, who doesn’t love a properly serialized sci-fi war epic.

That said, from the handful of eps I’ve seen, I don’t think I fundamentally like the show very much. I don’t like the drab look of the station, and, nothing against the cast, I don’t find the characters particularly appealing, either. The Ferengi seem uniformly obnoxious by design, Odo’s smooth face is off-putting (and I like Auberjonois from Boston Legal), and the rest seem like various shades of unremarkable (except for Worf, of course, because Worf’s awesome). What’s more, I’m not hugely jazzed at the idea of a Trek series ending with its captain ascending to a kind of godhood.

Then there’s the series’ much-balleyhooed crown jewel, “In the Pale Moonlight.” I’ve seen it twice, and I think Michelle Erica Green got it right the first time around; the scenario isn't nearly as edgy as the episode seemed to think:

I must say that I think the flashback-via-diary structure for this episode was a mistake, because I had a really hard time not laughing at Avery Brooks' earnest, emotional monologues in Sisko's personal logs.​

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[...] If he was really feeling guilty about the dead enemy agent and the man the Klingons were going to execute anyway, his skin isn't nearly tough enough for him to be a captain during wartime.​

So, given the above, I was interested to come across this here series guide (in the form of a very tall image file) by one “Spectrum,” rating each episode by both quality and narrative importance. Two key observations:

- Of the episodes deemed as having Major importance, only two (“Sons and Daughters” and “His Way”) get a quality rating of less than Good. (The reviewer rates “In the Pale Moonlight” as Great; take that as one will.)

- Of the episodes rated Great, only six (“Duet,” “Necessary Evil,” “The Visitor,” “Trials and Tribble-ations,” “Far Beyond the Stars,” “It’s Only a Paper Moon”) are deemed to have no narrative importance, and only one ("The Wire") is deemed to have minor importance.

So, I wonder if a Niner skeptic like me, were I ever to really explore the show, wouldn’t be best advised to only watch the 40 or so episodes (some of them two-parters) rated as having Major importance. Maybe if I loved those episodes, I’d be inspired to go back on catch up on those I missed, but please, no suggestions to simply grit my teeth and watch them from start to finish – sorry, but that’s a no-go for now.

Any other thoughts? Is Spectrum’s list of episodes of Major importance missing any big ones? Is the guide missing any Great episodes that aren't of at least mild overall importance?

 

[ananta]

Lists like that are kind of pointless to me, because it’s not some laboratory based, scientific theorem. It’s largely based on opinion, which naturally varies.

Frankly, from the attitude of your post (don’t take this personally because it’s not intended as a criticism), and the fact you’ve already watched some episodes and have a uniformly negative take on it…I wouldn’t bother watching any more. It’s probably not for you. Even by the first few episodes I was beginning to fall in love with the characters and the potential offered by the basic premise. It took a little while to reach its peak but when it does I believe it becomes one of the best TV shows ever made; something I’ve not been able to say about any post-DS9 Trek.

If you’ve already dipped in and can’t find anything to like, then stick to whatever Trek you do like. I know better than to try to proselytise.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I've long been interested in checking out DS9, because I've heard from a lot of smart people that it’s the best-written and most complex Trek series, as well as the most serialized, and, hey, who doesn’t love a properly serialized sci-fi war epic.

If you don't want to watch, don't watch. I won't be angry.

Then there’s the series’ much-balleyhooed crown jewel, “In the Pale Moonlight.” I’ve seen it twice, and I think Michelle Erica Green got it right the first time around; the scenario isn't nearly as edgy as the episode seemed to think:

[...] If he was really feeling guilty about the dead enemy agent and the man the Klingons were going to execute anyway, his skin isn't nearly tough enough for him to be a captain during wartime.

I though Green's critiques, not just this one, often were an attempt to look important. This last one is silly. Veterans have regrets, even for things that were perfectly legit. My great uncle was haunted by the death of the Japanese soldiers he torched in WWII.

So, given the above, I was interested to come across this here series guide (in the form of a very tall image file) by one “Spectrum,” rating each episode by both quality and narrative importance. Two key observations:

Don't know who this is or why I should give this reviewer more weight than anyone else. There are plenty of watch lists. And I'm not sure why I should work hard to provide you a list for something you seem intent on hating.

 

[Tosk]

If you already don't like what you've seen, I wouldn't bother. It doesn't sound like you really want to anyway so why force it?

 

[Gaith]

If you’ve already dipped in and can’t find anything to like

That's not the case, though I can see why my opening statement may have given that impression. I haven't found the characters super appealing so far, but I think it's a generally strong cast (far stronger than Enterprise, certainly), and I only outright dislike the Ferengi melodrama. For example, I liked everything in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" apart from its super-cringey Ferengi stuff, and not just because Robert Picardo was in a few scenes (though that certainly didn't hurt). As I said, I like the idea of a darker, and more cerebral Trek that's both serialized and well-written. I generally like the Cardassian characters, from what I've seen in episodes such as "Defiant," and not just because Frakes was in that episode (though that didn't hurt, either). And, what TNG fan doesn't like Worf?

Just because I'm not inclined to watch the whole thing as an initial approach doesn't mean I have zero interest in the series. I thought this series was all about exploring complex matters?

I know better than to try to proselytise.

I certainly made no such request, but, okay.

I though Green's critiques, not just this one, often were an attempt to look important. This last one is silly. Veterans have regrets, even for things that were perfectly legit. My great uncle was haunted by the death of the Japanese soldiers he torched in WWII.

IIRC, Sisko physically assaulted Garak for doing something that had a very high chance of saving the Federation. That's not feeling haunted; that's some glaringly disproportionate rage at breaking the rules.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sisko physically assaulted Garak for doing something that had a very high chance of saving the Federation. That's not feeling haunted; that's some glaringly disproportionate rage at breaking the rules.

No, it was anger and regret (yes, I used that word) for trusting Garak, who undertook risky actions that had the potential of make the situation worse. Certainly, Garak showed time and again how untrustworthy he was. Striking him was uncalled for. However, only the sensitivity of the operation spared him another trip to prison.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I've tried multiple times to get into DS9 but it never did anything for me. I watched the whole series, even. Twice. Still nothing. So really, if it isn't for you, it just isn't for you. Don't force yourself into liking it just because a lot of people say THEY like it.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Any list which rates Dramatis Personae and Invasive Procedures as 'Bad' clearly knows a bit about what it's talking about!

Though different things are going to seem important to different people. That list of 'major' episodes is great if you want to see lots of Gul Dukat, but if you think the story of Sisko raising his son is important, you're missing out on a lot of that. It also leaves out basically all of the Maquis episodes, there's very little about Cardassia shifting to a civilian government, it's missing Bashir's interest in espionage and his own secrets, etc.

So I've come up with 50 other episodes that might be worth thinking about:

1x02 - Past Prologue - First appearance of Garak. Sets up who Kira is and what Bajorans feel about it all.
1x03 - A Man Alone - Not a great episode, but it's the start of the Jake and Nog friendship.
1x05 - Captive Pursuit - Nothing important, but people always seem to like this one.
1x11 - The Nagus - I didn't like this Ferengi episode, but it does set up the Nagus.
1x18 - Duet - Maybe top 5 for the whole series.

2x05 - Cardassians - Not important but it does have Garak and Dukat in the same episode.
2x08 - Necessary Evil - People really like this one. A Odo story during the occupation.
2x12 - The Alternate - Not that good, but it's got Odo's dad in it.
2x19 - Blood Oath - Solid episode that sets up a recurring character.
2x20 - The Maquis, Part I
2x21 - The Maquis, Part II - Starts the Maquis arc.
2x22 - The Wire - Important for Garak.
2x23 - Crossover - Sets up the Mirror Universe.
2x25 - Tribunal - Explores Cardassian society.

3x05 - Second Skin - More Cardassian drama.
3x07 - Civil Defense - Garak and Dukat in the same episode, and it's great.
3x09 - Defiant - Dukat story that hints at later developments.
3x11 - Past Tense, Part I
3x12 - Past Tense, Part II - Just a solid two-parter.
3x14 - Heart of Stone - Important for two characters.
3x15 - Destiny - Has the Emissary deal with prophecy and the awkward peace with the Cardassians.
3x24 - Shakaar - Introduces a character and alters the political situation on Bajor.

4x03 - The Visitor - Everyone says watch this.
4x07 - Starship Down - Just a good submarine drama.
4x10 - Our Man Bashir - Bashir spy stuff with an appearance by Garak
4x16 - Bar Association - Ferengi stuff, but better than most and important for Rom
4x17 - Accession - Bit of a turning point in the Emissary arc.
4x22 - For the Cause - Important for Sisko's personal story and the Maquis arc.
4x23 - To the Death - Introduction of Weyoun.
4x24 - The Quickening - Shows the consequences of pissing off the Dominion (also it's really good).
4x25 - Body Parts - Important for Kira.

5x02 - The Ship - Some Dominion drama with one minor consequence down the road.
5x05 - The Assignment - Crucial for establishing a major antagonist.
5x06 - Trials and Tribble-ations - You know why this is on the list.
5x13 - For the Uniform - Important Maquis episode.
5x16 - Doctor Bashir, I Presume? - Crucial for Bashir's arc.
5x21 - Soldiers of the Empire - Introduces Martok's ship.
5x23 - Blaze of Glory - Important Maquis episode.
5x25 - In the Cards - A comedy episode but it's got Winn and Weyoun in it.

6x09 - Statistical Probabilities - Feels important to Bashir's arc.
6x13 - Far Beyond the Stars - One of the series' highest rated episodes.
6x21 - The Reckoning - Not great, but it probably contributes something to the Pah-wraith arc.

7x04 - Take Me Out to the Holosuite - It's just a fun story, which gives Kasidy some screen time.
7x06 - Treachery, Faith, and the Great River - Important information for the final arc.
7x07 - Once More Unto the Breach - Wraps up a recurring character.
7x08 - The Siege of AR-558 - Really good Dominion War story with consequences.
7x10 - It's Only a Paper Moon - Consequences.
7x14 - Chimera - Another story with Odo being tempted to go do Changeling things.
7x15 - Badda-Bing Badda-Bang - Another fun story with some more Kasidy.
7x16 - Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges - The other Section 31 story.

 

[Lord Garth]

If you don't like "In the Pale Moonlight" and you don't like most of the characters, or the way things end up, then I can't recommend this series to you.

Especially since you only want to watch 40 episodes. Over a year ago, I tried to create a list that boiled down DS9 to 50 episodes, just as a fun thought exercise, to see how it would look as a modern Star Trek series, and it didn't work. And that's with 50. Forget about 40.

It's like putting a square peg into a round hole.