Siskos prejudice?

[Tosk]

insulting him

When did he insult him?

Assuming that all of a race is going to act the same is prejudism.

When did he act like an entire race was going to act the same?

Sisko "Look, Nog, I have to be honest with you. When I think of candidates for Starfleet Academy, yours is not the first name that comes to mind."
Nog "Why not? Because I'm a Ferengi?"
Sisko "Not at all. The fact is, your reputation on this station leaves a lot to be desired. Your school grades are mediocre at best, and you've had more than a few run-ins with Constable Odo."

And if you need further proof, Sisko's attitude immediately after the meeting.

Dax "I always thought it would be interesting to have a Ferengi in Starfleet, but Nog?"
Sisko "I know it seems unlikely, but before I make up my mind I want to give him a chance to prove himself."
Dax "Commander, there's a lot of valuable equipment in cargo bay twelve."
Sisko "I know."
Dax "Maybe I should assign a couple of crew members to assist him."
Sisko "No. I want him to do it alone. No help, no interference, no one looking over his shoulder."

That's Sisko, despite every reason not to, giving Nog a fair chance. Not just a fair chance, but such a fair chance that even Dax thinks it might be unwise.

My opinion will not change.

I don't care if it does or doesn't. I'm only arguing against what I see as some possibly faulty assessments that lead to that decision.

 

[Oddish]

Here's the real question... if Nog had been human, would Sisko have similarly hesitated?

I think that yes, he would have.

 

[at Quark's]

For that matter, even after he joined Starfleet, Sisko sometimes found it necessary to get angry with Nog to get him to cooperate (Homefront/Paradise Lost over Red Squad springs immediately to mind, but might not be the only example).

True, but I doubt Sisko would've acted any differently in that situation, had it been a human (or any other established Federation species) ensign that came from DS9. He was rooting out a conspiracy by any means necessary, and the ensign he could use (who just happened to be a Ferengi) was in danger of falling under the spell of that Red Squad.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

True, but I doubt Sisko would've acted any differently in that situation, had it been a human (or any other established Federation species) ensign that came from DS9.

Or Bajoran, Orion or any other species really. He chose Nog because he was available and somewhat trustworthy.

He was rooting out a conspiracy by any means necessary, and the ensign he could use (who just happened to be a Ferengi) was in danger of falling under the spell of that Red Squad.

Cadet, not Ensign. Though I imagine a conversation with a similarly recatriant ensign would have gone similarly.

Here's the real question... if Nog had been human, would Sisko have similarly hesitated?

I think that yes, he would have.

It's unlikely that the issue would have come up with a human, unless they were from a non-Federation "rogue" colony (I imagine Tasha had to have such a conversation pre-Academy and it's strongly implied that Chakotay did as well), but I would agree that the individual characteristics would be what Sisko considered.

 

[at Quark's]

Cadet, not Ensign.

My bad.

Though I imagine a conversation with a similarly recatriant ensign would have gone similarly.

Or with anyone under his command if they were headstrong, I'd think. Though I'm not sure he could treat a, say, Lt. Commander not under his direct command that way. (Nog isn't either, after all, he's at Starfleet Academy at that point in time.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Or with anyone under his command if they were headstrong, I'd think.

You say headstrong, I say borderline insubordinate.

Though I'm not sure he could treat a, say, Lt. Commander not under his direct command that way.

I'd say there would still be a line, but they'd get more leeway than Nog did.

(Nog isn't either, after all, he's at Starfleet Academy at that point in time.)

Sisko is Chief of Starfleet Security for Earth, he might not be Nog's "line manager" but to say he's not under Sisko's jurisdiction would be like saying a US Naval Cadet isn't under NCIS jurisdiction.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

My bad.



Or with anyone under his command if they were headstrong, I'd think. Though I'm not sure he could treat a, say, Lt. Commander not under his direct command that way. (Nog isn't either, after all, he's at Starfleet Academy at that point in time.)

You say headstrong, I say borderline insubordinate.



I'd say there would still be a line, but they'd get more leeway than Nog did.



Sisko is Chief of Starfleet Security for Earth, he might not be Nog's "line manager" but to say he's not under Sisko's jurisdiction would be like saying a US Naval Cadet isn't under NCIS jurisdiction.

This starts to get messy. Nog is not in Sisko's hierarchy, but arguably Sisko isn't using his command abilities so much as his leadership skills to motivate a cadet who is eager to please. Making things more complicated is ST09. The "mobilized" cadets would all be within the general hierarchy of the task force sent to defend Vulcan, so those officers could command them.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

This starts to get messy. Nog is not in Sisko's hierarchy, but arguably Sisko isn't using his command abilities so much as his leadership skills to motivate a cadet who is eager to please.

So, what you're saying is that Sisko doesn't have investigative jurisdiction over Starfleet Academy? Particularly for "off campus" activities?

That he attempts to persuade Nog to cooperate first is beside the point IMO, but YMMV.

 

[at Quark's]

You say headstrong, I say borderline insubordinate.

Well, Sisko does phrase it as a request up until that point ('You think you could introduce me to one of them?').

I'm afraid I don't speak enough ' Starfleetese' to decode when a request is actually a request and when it is an order veiled in a request. If the default is 'always interpret it as an order, no matter how politely and how questioningly phrased, unless it's explicitly said it's not an order but a request'. I'll agree with you.

Sisko is Chief of Starfleet Security for Earth

I had forgotten about that little factoid (it has been many years since I've last seen the ep), but it changes the situation.

Come to think of it, it's strange in the first place.

LEYTON: Of course not. Ben, Earth is in danger. Maybe the greatest danger it's faced since the last world war. Something has to be done about these shape-shifters. Which is why you're here. You know more about the Dominion than anyone in Starfleet. And so, effective immediately, I'm making you acting head of Starfleet Security here on Earth.

Assuming that there was a perfectly competent actual head of Starfleet Security on Earth serving that knew all ins and outs of his position at that time, that's a pretty weird move (*). Granted that Sisko knows most about the Dominion, why not make him a temporary senior advisor to that head? This, in my view, only would make sense if the position was vacant at the time being, anyway, with no clear successor. But of course, it's great for narrative reasons - now he gets to boss Nog around

(* Yes, I know it happens in our world - but often that's a decidedly suboptimal strategy)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm afraid I don't speak enough ' Starfleetese' to decode when a request is actually a request and when it is an order veiled in a request.

A good 'boss' always starts with something that sounds like a request IMO.

If the default is 'always interpret it as an order, no matter how politely and how questioningly phrased, unless it's explicitly said it's not an order but a request'. I'll agree with you.

Well, IMO a cadet/trainee should probably consider anything to be an order when it's a) reasonable (and Nog merely suggests that it would be "against tradition") and b) from a senior officer with at least nominal authority, but YMMV.

Assuming that there was a perfectly competent actual head of Starfleet Security on Earth serving that knew all ins and outs of his position at that time, that's a pretty weird move (*).

My headcanon on that is that the previous head was at the Antwerp Conference and was one of the casualties.

This, in my view, only would make sense if the position was vacant at the time being, anyway, with no clear successor.

The other example of Head of Starfleet Security on Earth that we've seen was a Commodore, so it's not unlikely that Sisko actually outranked the Deputy/Interim Chief anyway.

 

[Farscape One]

Well, Sisko does phrase it as a request up until that point ('You think you could introduce me to one of them?').

I'm afraid I don't speak enough ' Starfleetese' to decode when a request is actually a request and when it is an order veiled in a request. If the default is 'always interpret it as an order, no matter how politely and how questioningly phrased, unless it's explicitly said it's not an order but a request'. I'll agree with you.


I had forgotten about that little factoid (it has been many years since I've last seen the ep), but it changes the situation.

Come to think of it, it's strange in the first place.



Assuming that there was a perfectly competent actual head of Starfleet Security on Earth serving that knew all ins and outs of his position at that time, that's a pretty weird move (*). Granted that Sisko knows most about the Dominion, why not make him a temporary senior advisor to that head? This, in my view, only would make sense if the position was vacant at the time being, anyway, with no clear successor. But of course, it's great for narrative reasons - now he gets to boss Nog around

(* Yes, I know it happens in our world - but often that's a decidedly suboptimal strategy)

Regarding Sisko as head of Starfleet Security on Earth...

Keep in mind it was Leyton who put him there. The previous cpuld have been killed at the conference or been temporarily reassigned or any number of other things. In "PARADISE LOST", Leyton did say that he hoped Sisko would understand what he was trying to do and join him, so there was likely an element of that when Leyton gave him the job.

Leyton did point out that Sisko knew more about the Dominion than anyone else in Starfleet, and almost certainly had more actual experience with them. (Which is true.) We've seen people promoted into a position based almost entirely on their specific knowledge or skill at something during that time. (Shelby being made XO by Captain Riker in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" comes to mind as an example.)

Considering what we as the audience knew at the time Sisko was given the post, it made sense. And it was proven to be a good decision, since Sisko was able to convince the Federation President to implement security precautions on his first meeting while Leyton tried previously and failed.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Leyton did point out that Sisko knew more about the Dominion than anyone else in Starfleet, and almost certainly had more actual experience with them. (Which is true.) We've seen people promoted into a position based almost entirely on their specific knowledge or skill at something during that time. (Shelby being made XO by Captain Riker in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" comes to mind as an example.)

Particularly if you figure that his predecessor were themselves only a Captain or Commodore, their deputy could be as little as a Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There is no easy way to sort out what legal authority Sisko had over Nog. The probable answer is none. He was Security, Nog was under the Academy. Leyton's order, signed by the President, potentially throws that out the door. Rather than relying on that as an explanation, Sisko is using his leadership abilities to make Nog do something. He is not using any legal powers or hierarchy. He is using his ability to communicate clear demands and the trust that he engenders. What Sisko demands does not contradict anything that Nog was ordered, and Nog is not inclined to investigate whether or not Sisko could give a command. If Sisko said, "I want a glass of water, and I want it now," in the moment, Nog would be expected to get a glass of water, assuming it did not contradict any other duties.

Now, there are more complicated examples in Star Trek lore from "Doomsday Machine." Decker clearly has the legal authority to take over the Enterprise, and he can resist any medical exam. However, Kirk uses his leadership ability to convince the crew to take back command of the Enterprise.

 

[Dee1891]

Am I the only person who thinks that Sisko was acting like an absolute dick to Nog here? Prejudice and all? I found him a bit aggressive in this too. He even says you are a Ferengi as a reason to discourage him. What bothers me more is he is just a kid. Many people were seen as criminals in the US coming over here. Or what if he said you are a Jew or black? I knew an Italian family whose grandad was discriminated in college because of the mafia as they were all seen as criminals. Luckily it worked out well for the guy. People are more blown away at the acting here especially Aaron. So, they may not see it and they are used to the Ferengi being a certain way but this is truly awful. I know he did not like Jake hanging out with him when he was helping him too. It seemed unreasonable. Children aren't born bad so it's like saying he had inferior genes, and it was inevitable. Dukat was treated better.

Actually, I've found most of the Starfleet characters in TNG, DS9 and VOY rather bigoted toward the Ferengi characters. Especially in DS9.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

There is no easy way to sort out what legal authority Sisko had over Nog. The probable answer is none. He was Security, Nog was under the Academy.

There's a difference between having operational authority and having administrative authority. The first is exclusive to one's own "chain of command" for the most part and basically allows the holder to compel a subordinate to do anything that's not actually illegal, the second is broader in possible applications but narrower in scope (for instance, any medical officer or at physican will have full medical authority over any service member regardless of rank and security personnel are typically similarly empowered.

Starfleet Academy and its spins off are part of Starfleet and therefore Starfleet Security has full jurisdiction over all Starfleet personnel when undertaking a criminal investigation (which Sisko was).

 

[at Quark's]

Actually, I've found most of the Starfleet characters in TNG, DS9 and VOY rather bigoted toward the Ferengi characters. Especially in DS9.

DS9 is the only series that has a decent sample size of interactions that could have shown such prejudice to begin with.

They only appear in 3, maybe 4 episodes in Voyager (I can recall Caretaker, False Profits, and Inside Man - and perhaps, if you're feeling generous you could count Infinite Regress where 7 is 'channeling' a Ferengi), and I'm not sure the Starfleet characters aren't prejudiced in those instances (would have to rewatch the episodes). And IIRC, almost all encounters in TNG were adversarial in nature, so that any 'prejudice' wouldn't be noticed either against that background- they were 'the enemy' anyway.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There's a difference between having operational authority and having administrative authority. The first is exclusive to one's own "chain of command" for the most part and basically allows the holder to compel a subordinate to do anything that's not actually illegal, the second is broader in possible applications but narrower in scope (for instance, any medical officer or at physican will have full medical authority over any service member regardless of rank and security personnel are typically similarly empowered.

Starfleet Academy and its spins off are part of Starfleet and therefore Starfleet Security has full jurisdiction over all Starfleet personnel when undertaking a criminal investigation (which Sisko was).

We know from The Drumhead that Starfleet servicemen enjoy rights similar to what American citizens enjoy and, in an investigation, could refuse to answer.

 

[at Quark's]

We know from The Drumhead that Starfleet servicemen enjoy rights similar to what American citizens enjoy and, in an investigation, could refuse to answer.

Yes, but that was already in a formal inquiry. That might be different from the 'everyday' situation Nog is in when he is being ordered to reveal certain information, so extra rules of protection might be in place in the first case.

 

[Farscape One]

Yes, but that was already in a formal inquiry. That might be different from the 'everyday' situation Nog is in when he is being ordered to reveal certain information, so extra rules of protection might be in place in the first case.

Plus in Nog's case, it was just informing Sisko of a name of a Red Squad member, which is more like being an informant outside a courtroom setting, while Simon Tarses was in a courtroom setting being investigated himself.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Yes, but that was already in a formal inquiry. That might be different from the 'everyday' situation Nog is in when he is being ordered to reveal certain information, so extra rules of protection might be in place in the first case.

Plus in Nog's case, it was just informing Sisko of a name of a Red Squad member, which is more like being an informant outside a courtroom setting, while Simon Tarses was in a courtroom setting being investigated himself.

This seems to be a fallacy: that rights, such as silence or against self-incrimination, only protect criminals or that authorities are required to say when someone is under suspicion or not.