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Spoilers Andor - Season 2

It was good but Luthen's character is problematic, especially that scene where he and kid Kleya blow up a patrol on Naboo that near as we can tell wasn't committing any atrocities at that time. Cassian then claims that the rebellion wouldn't exist without Luthen and his methods, i.e. terrorism is needed for protest which is a dangerous claim to make.

Strangely enough before Andor the Alliance was shown as different from Saw's Partisans as engaging when necessary but trying to avoid anything gratuitous (like setting up Ghorman which Luthen had a role indirectly). Andor made Saw into a drug addicted nutjob, replaced him with Luthen and basically undid the whole original argument between Saw and Mothma by replacing Saw with Luthen and then giving Luthen a sympathetic angle.
Luthen is supposed to be problematic. We know it. The Rebellion knows it. And Luthen knows it. Blowing up assets is how you conduct a guerilla war. Any Imperial asset is a valid target. Any Imperial official is a valid target. They don't need to be actively committing atrocities. I doubt the French Resistance passed on the opportunity to damage the Nazi occupiers because they were just passing through town.

Saw was a nutjob in Rogue One. Nothing new there.
 
It was good but Luthen's character is problematic, especially that scene where he and kid Kleya blow up a patrol on Naboo that near as we can tell wasn't committing any atrocities at that time. Cassian then claims that the rebellion wouldn't exist without Luthen and his methods, i.e. terrorism is needed for protest which is a dangerous claim to make.

Strangely enough before Andor the Alliance was shown as different from Saw's Partisans as engaging when necessary but trying to avoid anything gratuitous (like setting up Ghorman which Luthen had a role indirectly). Andor made Saw into a drug addicted nutjob, replaced him with Luthen and basically undid the whole original argument between Saw and Mothma by replacing Saw with Luthen and then giving Luthen a sympathetic angle.
Terrorists end up becoming heroes and noble freedom fighters if their side wins because that’s how history works, whoever wins gets to write it.

Also they blew up Imperial troops, whether or not they were good individuals or not is irrelevant, they were serving a fascist government ruling the galaxy through violence and genocide. Something they were doing from the beginning, it’s how Luthen and Cleya met and why they became rebels. If you can take them out, you do it.
 
Luthen should be problematic. Most revolutions and wars for democratic liberties aren't won without some of the most questionable people in society doing questionable things for a goal they might not ever see fulfilled. Luthen is closer to reality than Luke Skywalker, tragically.
 
Terrorists end up becoming heroes and noble freedom fighters if their side wins because that’s how history works, whoever wins gets to write it.

Also they blew up Imperial troops, whether or not they were good individuals or not is irrelevant, they were serving a fascist government ruling the galaxy through violence and genocide. Something they were doing from the beginning, it’s how Luthen and Cleya met and why they became rebels. If you can take them out, you do it.
There are other ways to fight. The Cold War was won with relatively little bloodshed (that's why it was cold, and yes it was replaced with another vicious government but still there was a genuine attempt at reform before that)

I don't like Christianity or Catholicism but Pope John Paul II DID influence the Iron Curtain to fall without lifting a single weapon (yes he's also responsible for a militant Catholicism in Poland where abortion is almost impossible but again that's another story)

So yes, it can be done relatively peacefully. Freedom fighters? Is the American Revolution a freedom fighter? They kept slaves, and their legacy wiped out the native Americans, and the romanticization of them arguably led to a strain of extreme nationalism and arguably racism inherent in culture that lasts to this day.
 
Luthen, Kleya and Cassian
here are other ways to fight. The Cold War was won with relatively little bloodshed (that's why it was cold, and yes it was replaced with another vicious government but still there was a genuine attempt at reform before that)
Vietnam and Korea would like a word.

How many people do you think died when the Death Stars were destroyed? How many Stormtroopers, TIE pilots. X-Wing Pilots and others died in conflicts between the Rebels and the Empire? Star Wars is not a "Cold War".
 
There are other ways to fight. The Cold War was won with relatively little bloodshed (that's why it was cold, and yes it was replaced with another vicious government but still there was a genuine attempt at reform before that)

I don't like Christianity or Catholicism but Pope John Paul II DID influence the Iron Curtain to fall without lifting a single weapon (yes he's also responsible for a militant Catholicism in Poland where abortion is almost impossible but again that's another story)

So yes, it can be done relatively peacefully. Freedom fighters? Is the American Revolution a freedom fighter? They kept slaves, and their legacy wiped out the native Americans, and the romanticization of them arguably led to a strain of extreme nationalism and arguably racism inherent in culture that lasts to this day.
I don’t think you can fight fascism through peace because they don’t value it or even want it, they want to kill everyone they don’t like and take their resources. The only way to combat that is to fight them by whatever means necessary. A peaceful world with the Nazis wasn’t possible and that’s why the Allies had to stop them, even creating the atomic bomb as part of the plan to do so. War is not pretty or good guys vs bad guys, the showrunners for Andor know that and that’s why it’s so powerful. It took something that essentially a fairy tale and had it reflect actual history and human nature.
 
The Cold War was hot in many, many ways. Just because there wasn't a nuclear exchange or thousands of Warsaw Pact tanks pouring through the Fulda Gap doesn't mean it was all behind-the-scenes yelling and negotiating. A lot of people died between 1947 and 1991. Millions and millions.

Hell, the Cold War cost America over 90,000 soldiers alone.
 
I don’t think you can fight fascism through peace because they don’t value it or even want it, they want to kill everyone they don’t like and take their resources. The only way to combat that is to fight them by whatever means necessary. A peaceful world with the Nazis wasn’t possible and that’s why the Allies had to stop them, even creating the atomic bomb as part of the plan to do so. War is not pretty or good guys vs bad guys, the showrunners for Andor know that and that’s why it’s so powerful. It took something that essentially a fairy tale and had it reflect actual history and human nature.
Guerrilla combat is necessary when you're in an occupied territory so I wouldn't argue against occupied France fighting or occupied Nanjing for example. All the rest was a country formally declaring war against another country (i.e. Britain declaring war on Germany etc.) which falls outside Luthen's style of fighting (he's not in a formal military etc.)

If Luthen were in an occupied planet and fighting back, that's fine. If an occupied planet asked for his help and he helped them fight back, fine. But deliberately setting up people who you know aren't ready (i.e. Ghorman) or attacking military in a populace that isn't actively revolting (the Naboo attack) is too far.
 
Guerrilla combat is necessary when you're in an occupied territory so I wouldn't argue against occupied France fighting or occupied Nanjing for example. All the rest was a country formally declaring war against another country (i.e. Britain declaring war on Germany etc.) which falls outside Luthen's style of fighting (he's not in a formal military etc.)

If Luthen were in an occupied planet and fighting back, that's fine. If an occupied planet asked for his help and he helped them fight back, fine. But deliberately setting up people who you know aren't ready (i.e. Ghorman) or attacking military in a populace that isn't actively revolting (the Naboo attack) is too far.
Yet he’s instrumental to them winning the war. If not for him both Mon Mothma would be dead and the Rebels wouldn’t know about the Death Star. In Rogue One, they only go forward with the mission because the spy that Cassian meets in the beginning is confirming what Cleya is telling them. Also the entire galaxy is being occupied some planets just accept it.
 
But wouldn't the rebels have gotten the information from Tivik even without Luthen?
They needed more than one source, they can’t risk exposing themselves on the word of one spy. We’ve been shown that the Empire spreads misinformation in an attempt to manipulate the rebellion, that’s what got the Gorman resistance wiped out. It’s the same reason they don’t initially even listen to the information when they get it. But Tivik confirms it for them causing them to take it seriously.
 
Yet he’s instrumental to them winning the war. If not for him both Mon Mothma would be dead and the Rebels wouldn’t know about the Death Star. In Rogue One, they only go forward with the mission because the spy that Cassian meets in the beginning is confirming what Cleya is telling them. Also the entire galaxy is being occupied some planets just accept it.
I get what you're saying actually. If Prigozhin had followed through on raiding the Kremlin a few years back, a horrific incident where someone I know from Ukraine was threatened probably wouldn't have happened.

It's not an easy situation. It's a case by case basis. Cassian will say that Luthen's a hero. Lonni's wife and kids? I'm guessing they won't.
 
I get what you're saying actually. If Prigozhin had followed through on raiding the Kremlin a few years back, a horrific incident where someone I know from Ukraine was threatened probably wouldn't have happened.

It's not an easy situation. It's a case by case basis. Cassian will say that Luthen's a hero. Lonni's wife and kids? I'm guessing they won't.
Probably not. The Empire was aware of what he did, he could never be taken to Yavin without the Empire following them. He was a dead man walking no matter what happened, it may have even saved his family’s life because they at least can claim they never knew of his actions. But the galaxy was saved in the end and Lonnie’s death did enable that.
 
Andor S2 motivated me to rewatch Rogue One, which I hadn't seen in some time, and as petty as it is, it bugs me that they decided to make K-2SO blaster-proof in Andor when in RO he dies from blaster fire. Sure maybe it's a civilian vs. military-grade firearm difference, but it stands out watching them back to back.
 
But the galaxy was saved in the end and Lonnie’s death did enable that.
What defines how something is saved? A return to democracy? Less warfare and atrocities? Tatooine was in an open gang war despite it literally being Luke's homeplanet as seen in Boba Fett. Lando's daughter was kidnapped and he never found out what happened to her and the Republic did zip about it until years later so... yeah.
 
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