Spoilers The Story & the Engine grade and discussion thread

[jaime]

It kinda did in the Pertwee years. Check out the Daemons. But it's gone full blow magical realism these days. It all started with the Toymaker coming back.

He says it at 2:30-2:50:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

The Daemons specifically addresses the ‘magic’ as not being magic in the story itself. It was usual in Who for years that any ‘magic’ on earth was usually just aliens. (Which is why the ‘cultural appropriation’ lime about SUTEKH/Pyramids last season was either clever or silly, depending on writer intent) Other good examples are things like The Stones of Blood, The Awakening, and Battlefield.

Off the top of my head, the only two ‘magical’ serials are Greatest Show and Curse of Fenric, but after something like State of Decay things are set up in Who as having the suggestion that supernatural elements were chased out of the universe by the Time Lords (something run with in the books, including Davies own one, and now explicitly being riffed on in the show itself.)

 

[Chaos Descending]

Um, seriously? Doctor Who has always had a fair bit of fantasy scattered in.

I disagree. It may have had "some" small bit of fantasy, but this season and the last it's been so over the top that I just can't take it.

 

[VDCNI]

I mean it's a show about a time lord who changes their entire body everytime they die and travels all of time and space in a magic box.

You can call that Sci-Fi if you like but it's hardly strongly rooted in strong scientific concepts.

Generally enjoyed this episode, was a little slow to start but I thought it got stronger as the episode went on.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

It used to be one thing and I liked it, then goblins and story-powered spiders appeared and I stopped liking it. I'm pretty sure it's the fantasy that's the problem for me, regardless of how many hearts the hero has.

 

[The Wormhole]

I generally dislike the fantasy genre to a point where it's a factor in why I could never really get into Lord of the Rings and why I've never bothered with Game of Thrones. But there is nothing in the recent seasons of Doctor Who that feels out of place with the previous eras of the show, nor is it more fantastical than it has been previously.

 

[Mr Awe]

I do think RTD has intentionally shifted it towards a more fantasy approach and I'm pretty sure he's even stated that. DW was usually just a science flavored series. It tended to not use magic or supernatural beings. And it also tended to imply that unusual powers, beings, etc were all based on science but left the details vague. There's been a shift in the fantasy direction, although as @Starkers pointed out, it's about 50/50.

 

[The Wormhole]

Sure, the show is leaning more towards fantasy and the supernatural, this even got lampshaded within the show itself last year when explaining UNIT to Ruby in 73 Yards, Kate noted "we seem to be dealing with more supernatural threats here lately." Still, I don't think the current amount of fantasy in the series currently clashes with how much was in it previously. After all, this is a show about a time travelling phone booth that's bigger on the inside, you kind of have to accept going in that this isn't the show for hard science or realism.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

When I started with the show back in the Matt Smith era I knew it wasn't going to be hard science, but I thought I'd give it a chance to win me over and it did. Series 5 was a show I could enjoy.

I stuck with it through the Peter Capaldi era, and despite some absolutely terrible fantasy episodes (Kill the Moon, In the Forest of the Night etc.) I was still mostly on board.

I went back to watch the RTD run, and it turned out that aside from the burping wheelie bins, farting aliens, curing every disease in the world by spraying IV drips on them, and the Doctor getting magic powers by everyone wishing really hard etc. I was still on board.

I watched the entire classic show, every episode that exists and a few that don't. I was still on board.

I watched the Chris Chibnall era... and that had its own problems. It didn't quite resemble the series I liked anymore, but I held in there.

But this new era, it's really losing me. Boom, 73 Yards and Dot & Bubble had me thinking that I could ignore the occasional Devil's Chord and keep watching, but the series' reality has been falling apart so bad since 'mavity' that I think it might actually be a deliberate story arc. An arc that I am not into.

 

[Starkers]

As an aside it's interesting that you don't count 73 Yards as a fantasy episode, when given the lack of of any coherent explanation for what's actually happening makes it perhaps one of the most mystical of all?

Or am I missing the point completely and it's so well done it doesn't matter that it's fantasy?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

There are definitely aspects of 73 Yards that bother me enough to keep it from being an all-time favourite, but I think its ambiguity helps. I can't dislike what happened in it if I don't even know what happened in it! Maybe nothing happened in it.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I really struggle to take the "Chibnall's era had its problem, but RTD2 is losing me" comments serisouly, in all honesty. Like, its not the series 3-specials RTD streak, but for my money it blows RTD's own original second series, not to mention the entirety of Chibnall's run, during which I was miserable and almost gave up watching or caring about the show at all (were it not my monumental watchalong and listenathon in 2021, that is, that re-energized me). And this second series? Well, arguably, its as good as RTD at his best, that being series 1 and 3-specials.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Here's how someone can find that RTD's second era is less enjoyable than even the disappointing Chibnall run:

The Woman Who Fell to Earth vs The Star Beast - RTD2 did well but stumbled at the end, winner Chibnall
The Ghost Monument vs Wild Blue Yonder - Easily RTD2
Rosa vs The Giggle - Rosa wasn't bad, Giggle was better. RTD2
Arachnids in the UK vs The Church on Ruby Road - Neither is great, I prefer the spiders. Chibnall.
The Tsuranga Conundrum vs Space Babies - Easy win for Tsuranga, which doesn't happen often. Chibnall.
Demons of the Punjab vs The Devil's Chord - Demons has issues but it's no contest for me. Chibnall.
Kerblam! vs Boom - RTD2, easily.
The Witchfinders vs 73 Yards - This is really close. I'm giving it to RTD2.
It Takes You Away vs Dot and Bubble - RTD2 wins.
The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos vs Rogue - Didn't like either much. I guess Chibnall, barely.
Resolution vs The Legend of Ruby Sunday - Really close. I'll give it to RTD2.
Spyfall, Part One vs Empire of Death - Chibnall wins.
Spyfall, Part Two vs Joy to the World - Close, Spyfall was really dumb, but Chibnall wins.
Orphan 55 vs The Robot Revolution - I liked the 'every 9th word' thing and I hated the 'Orphan 55' thing, so RTD2.
Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror vs Lux - Giving this to Chibnall
Fugitive of the Judoon vs The Well - The Well was not bad, but Chibnall wins this.
Praxeus vs Lucky Day - Would it be fair to say Tighe vs Tighe is a tie? I'll give it to RTD2.
Can You Hear Me? vs The Story & the Engine - Neither is my favourite, but if I have to choose it's Chibnall.

Chibnall era 10, RTD2 era 8. Meanwhile RTD1 and Moffat both stomp the Chibnall run into the ground.

 

[The Wormhole]

stuck with it through the Peter Capaldi era, and despite some absolutely terrible fantasy episodes (Kill the Moon, In the Forest of the Night etc.)

Well, yes, Kill the Moon and Forest of the Night are absolutely horrible episodes, I don't think anyone has ever denied that.

 

[kirk55555]

I really struggle to take the "Chibnall's era had its problem, but RTD2 is losing me" comments serisouly, in all honesty. Like, its not the series 3-specials RTD streak, but for my money it blows RTD's own original second series, not to mention the entirety of Chibnall's run, during which I was miserable and almost gave up watching or caring about the show at all (were it not my monumental watchalong and listenathon in 2021, that is, that re-energized me). And this second series? Well, arguably, its as good as RTD at his best, that being series 1 and 3-specials.

While I agree that RTD2 is generally better then Chibnall (but thats a low bar), he's certainly nowhere near his best. Nothing in RTD2 can match the best episodes of his first run (The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, The Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, The doctor's daughter, The Wasp & the Unicorn, Midnight, The Water of Mars and The End of Time all coming to mind immediately), although to be fair many of RTD1's best episodes were written by Moffat. The only RTD2 episodes that come close to me are The Giggle and The Well.

In comparison, RTD2 has Space Babies, the episode that dethroned Fear her and Love & Monsters as the worst NuWho episodes in my opinion. So i'd say that RTD2 is a lot of mediocrity with a few good episodes but more awful ones, while RTD1 was generally ok to good with some absolute classics.

All that said, Chibnall will always be the worst for me, pretty much by default because he has episodes I have never and will never watch, which makes his era the worst by default for me.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Well, yes, Kill the Moon and Forest of the Night are absolutely horrible episodes, I don't think anyone has ever denied that.

Elizabeth Sandifer (TARDIS Eruditorum) loved both. "Kill the Moon" was, in her words, "the single best episode of Doctor Who ever." "In the Forest of the Night" was "a transcendent piece of Doctor Who." This was about the point where I realized I was not watching the same show as she was.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Elizabeth Sandifer (TARDIS Eruditorum) loved both. "Kill the Moon" was, in her words, "the single best episode of Doctor Who ever." "In the Forest of the Night" was "a transcendent piece of Doctor Who." This was about the point where I realized I was not watching the same show as she was.

Yeah, but we all know what her actual favorites are.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Yeah, but we all know what her actual favorites are.

Talons of Weng-Chiang, right? (Ducks and runs really really fast...)

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Talons of Weng-Chiang, right? (Ducks and runs really really fast...)

To be fair, Hell Bent is just as controversial these days, but for totally different reasons.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sure, the show is leaning more towards fantasy and the supernatural, this even got lampshaded within the show itself last year when explaining UNIT to Ruby in 73 Yards, Kate noted "we seem to be dealing with more supernatural threats here lately." Still, I don't think the current amount of fantasy in the series currently clashes with how much was in it previously. After all, this is a show about a time travelling phone booth that's bigger on the inside, you kind of have to accept going in that this isn't the show for hard science or realism.

I guess we differ on that as I do think it's pretty apparent there is more of it. However, I don't think we're at catastrophic levels of it or anything like that. Just that is more than before (like Kate says). And I'd also say that my criticisms of it the past two seasons don't relate so much to the fantasy elements but other things.

But to each their own!

 

[The Wormhole]

Elizabeth Sandifer (TARDIS Eruditorum) loved both. "Kill the Moon" was, in her words, "the single best episode of Doctor Who ever." "In the Forest of the Night" was "a transcendent piece of Doctor Who." This was about the point where I realized I was not watching the same show as she was.

I remember Inner Space, a program which used to air on the Space channel in Canada, which was mostly meant to be a sci-fi news program, though they would also episodes of shows they aired on the day after they aired, or closest to, since Inner Space was Monday to Friday and Doctor Who aired on Saturdays, meaning they talked about the new Doctor Who on the Monday episodes.

Anyway, they always provided absolute glowing reviews of these shows whenever they covered them. Understandable, really, since they are trying to encourage their audience to watch their channel's programming. But I was amused when the were covering Kill the Moon, since it felt like they were genuinely struggling to come up with anything positive to say about it. I didn't catch the Inner Space covering Forest of the Night, so I don't know how they fared there.