Would different "types" of phasers make sense?

[evilchumlee]

To clarify what i'm asking here, modern day, real-life come in a plethora of different types... pistols, sub-machine guns, machine guns, carbines, rifles, shotguns etc. They all do a similar thing, shoot bullets to kill things, but they do them in slightly different ways for different applications.

In Star Trek, we know we have three general types... a small, compact Type 1, the venerable handheld Type 2, and a more powerful Type 3 "rifle".

If one were trying to extrapolate out a purpose built, Starfleet combat force, would it actually make any sense to have different types? Like, would there be any point of of a "Phaser SMG"? How it would even work?

I've been able to reconcile a few different potential things that make sense...

A "marksman / sniper" rifle variant that fires a bolt rather than a beam, configured to hold its energy over especially long distances with advanced optics built in. These could be like, crazy long range with the technology, like potentially being able to hit something miles away if there was direct line of sight. The sniper probably wouldn't even need to be particularly skilled... the optics and computers would take care of calculating the shot.

A "machine gun" type that isn't actually a machine gun. I think of it as a "Sustained Fire" Phaser, that is basically just a phaser rifle with a massive power pack that is capable of firing a sustained, constant beam over a longer period of time, or a powerful wide beam for a shorter amount of time but longer than you would get out of a normal phaser.

Maybe something like a "close quarters"/shotgun type that is configured to fire in a wider beam, conical arc. The thing is... you should be able to do that with just a regular phaser, so i'm not sure it REALLY makes any sense? Perhaps it could work for just being like purpose built for it rather than needing to be configured... you can pick up a the CQB Phaser and not have to fiddle with settings, it's just ready to go.

Those are really the only three things I can think of that seem to make any sense. I'm curious about ideas here.

 

[1001001]

Moving to Trek Tech

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

To clarify what i'm asking here, modern day, real-life come in a plethora of different types... pistols, sub-machine guns, machine guns, carbines, rifles, shotguns etc. They all do a similar thing, shoot bullets to kill things, but they do them in slightly different ways for different applications.

First, you need to explore each category of FireArm and figure out why each section exists IRL.

• Hand Guns come in various Generalized Classes:
  • CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) sized
  • Regular Duty Weapon size
  • Competition size
  • PDW (Personal Defense Weapon)
  • SMG (Sub-Machine Gun) type Pistols AKA Machine Pistols
• Carbines:
  • PDW's
  • SMG's
• "Regular Rifles" AKA Long Gun
  • There's an entire deep history/evolution tree on this itself
• Machine Guns
  • There's also a long history on the evolution of the Machine Gun and it's various roles
• Shot Guns
  • It's usage is fascinating and it's modern relevance is more important than ever given the rise of Anti-Personnel Mini Drones becoming prevalent in the BattleField now thanks to the War in Ukraine.
• Sniper Rifles
  • Anti-Personnel
  • Anti-Material

Each weapon category has a reason to exist and why new iterations of each weapon is constantly being developed & refined.

In Star Trek, we know we have three general types... a small, compact Type 1, the venerable handheld Type 2, and a more powerful Type 3 "rifle".

If one were trying to extrapolate out a purpose built, Starfleet combat force, would it actually make any sense to have different types? Like, would there be any point of of a "Phaser SMG"? How it would even work?

From here you can extrapolate what types of Beam Weaponry you would need for a Standardized Ground Combat Force.

You figure out what roles each weapon plays, than you design it.

 

[evilchumlee]

Each weapon category has a reason to exist and why new iterations of each weapon is constantly being developed & refined.


From here you can extrapolate what types of Beam Weaponry you would need for a Standardized Ground Combat Force.

You figure out what roles each weapon plays, than you design it.

Gonna kind of reply backwards here....

First, you need to explore each category of FireArm and figure out why each section exists IRL.

Hand Guns come in various Generalized Classes:

• CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) sized
• Regular Duty Weapon size
• Competition size
• PDW (Personal Defense Weapon)
• SMG (Sub-Machine Gun) type Pistols AKA Machine Pistols

In this case, it does very seem like the standard Type 1 and Type 2 would fit all of these roles. The only difference I could potentially see is maybe a "Competition" phaser would be styled a bit a more ergonomically than a TNG Type 2, but otherwise they should fill the functions of all of these.

Carbines:

• PDW's
• SMG's

This is where i'm sure there's any thing these do that a Type 2 or Type 3 wouldn't.

"Regular Rifles" AKA Long Gun

• There's an entire deep history/evolution tree on this itself

Generally covered by the Type 3.

• Machine Guns
  • There's also a long history on the evolution of the Machine Gun and it's various roles

This is why I was thinking some sort of "sustained fire" version that could be used for suppression and what not.

• Shot Guns
  • It's usage is fascinating and it's modern relevance is more important than ever given the rise of Anti-Personnel Mini Drones becoming prevalent in the BattleField now thanks to the War in Ukraine.

Kinda went over that.

• Sniper Rifles
  • Anti-Personnel
  • Anti-Material

I think when you get to phaser technology, I don't know that there would need to be a functional difference between those two. I see the value in having a phaser equipped for long range, but between anti-personnel and anti-material, that largely seems like it would be just a quick setting change.

Now I *DO* think that some other types of weapons would be useful, like man-portable photon launchers.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sorry, not to be pedantic, but shotguns do not shoot bullets, they shoot pellets collectively called shot, or in some cases a slug, which are different. All guns shoot projectiles, though, which is what you're getting at.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Gonna kind of reply backwards here....

First, you need to explore each category of FireArm and figure out why each section exists IRL.

In this case, it does very seem like the standard Type 1 and Type 2 would fit all of these roles. The only difference I could potentially see is maybe a "Competition" phaser would be styled a bit a more ergonomically than a TNG Type 2, but otherwise they should fill the functions of all of these.



This is where i'm sure there's any thing these do that a Type 2 or Type 3 wouldn't.



Generally covered by the Type 3.




This is why I was thinking some sort of "sustained fire" version that could be used for suppression and what not.




Kinda went over that.




I think when you get to phaser technology, I don't know that there would need to be a functional difference between those two. I see the value in having a phaser equipped for long range, but between anti-personnel and anti-material, that largely seems like it would be just a quick setting change.

Now I *DO* think that some other types of weapons would be useful, like man-portable photon launchers.

You kind of went in analyzing backwards.

You look at it from a Phaser PoV and tried to fit their roles into existing FireArms category.

I'm asking you to understand why the FireArms categories exist FIRST.

Then you go back and assess what kind of threats that the different types of Phasers will exist to deal with, along with the various roles they play in terms of each Phasers speciality and how it applies to each individual & group level dynamics.

After that, you'll truly understand what kind of categories you really need to create.

 

[evilchumlee]

You kind of went in analyzing backwards.

You look at it from a Phaser PoV and tried to fit their roles into existing FireArms category.

I'm asking you to understand why the FireArms categories exist FIRST.

I think I did that, I may have just spoken from the Phaser PoV.

I think it makes sense in this case to look at the capabilities of a phaser and then apply those to the roles of existing firearms, and then taking into account the inherent differences.

Take for instance a Carbine. It's role is generally to be lighter and shorter than a rifle, to increase mobility. Given phasers are never portrayed as being as being heavy, and there's generally not much in the way of a power/effectiveness difference between a Type 2 and Type 3 phaser, there seems to be no real need for a "carbine". The TNG/Dominion War-style Type 3 might be a "carbine" of sorts... it's shorter than the other version of phaser rifles.

An SMG's role is to be close quarters, small for mobility, be able to fire automatic or selective fire, use pistol caliber ammunition... the ammunition isn't a concern here, nor is the firing mode. Seems like the role of an SMG would be perfectly fine taken by a standard Type 2. I can't really think of a reason why one would need a slightly larger Type 2, except possibly in the case of being able to have a larger power cell. That might be reasonable.

I already noted earlier I don't think there would be any significant difference between an Anti-Personnel Sniper Phaser and an Anti-Materiel Sniper Phaser. I DO see a use for a longer range, precision phaser weapon, but one unit should be able to do the job for both roles. Need a person dead, use x power setting. Need a person to disappear, use y power setting. Need a wall to disappear, use z power setting.

 

[publiusr]

SFB had Gatling phasers

Federation Commander :: View topic - gattling phasers and range

Starship Weaponry - Federation Space - Official Wiki

wiki.fed-space.com

FASA had compression phasers before Voyager—as per the Gemini AI

Type-I and Type-II Hand Phasers

 

[knightgrace]

Someone drew up the Phaser 0. It looks like a Yeoman's pen. Settings: face slap, stun one, and dematerialization...

A must for some Yeoman...

 

[evilchumlee]

SFB had Gatling phasers

Federation Commander :: View topic - gattling phasers and range

What would be the point of a gatling phaser though? I don't really see how multiple barrels would be of any advantage with a phaser.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What would be the point of a gatling phaser though? I don't really see how multiple barrels would be of any advantage with a phaser.

The reasons for Gatling Guns IRL is for reliable operation & Rapid Fire.

You need at least 3x Barrels for Minimum Effective Operation.
- 1x Barrel to Fire
- 1x Barrel to Extract the Round (Spent or UnSpent)
- 1x Barrel to Load a brand new Round
- NOTE: (Yes, I know that some early Cobra Attack Choppers have 2x Barrels, but those are very rare, most Gatling Guns have 3x or more Barrels).


For a Gatling or Rapid Fire version of a Beam Gun, you only need a Minimum of 2x Barrels.
- While One Barrel is Charging, the other barrel is about to fire.
- This alternating of firing Beam Bolts/Streaks is what gives it the "Rapid Fire" you desire.
- Any more Barrels is to allow slower heat build up and more time to cool down along with faster fire rate.
- That usually isn't necessary or even desired since 2x Barrels can do the job.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Is it possible to create a phaser that turns its fire into a projectile midstream (such as when it hits a hard surface)?

 

[evilchumlee]

The reasons for Gatling Guns IRL is for reliable operation & Rapid Fire.

For a Gatling or Rapid Fire version of a Beam Gun, you only need a Minimum of 2x Barrels.

- While One Barrel is Charging, the other barrel is about to fire.
- This alternating of firing Beam Bolts/Streaks is what gives it the "Rapid Fire" you desire.
- Any more Barrels is to allow slower heat build up and more time to cool down along with faster fire rate.
- That usually isn't necessary or even desired since 2x Barrels can do the job.

That's a reasonable answer, but i'm not sure it's really all that useful for phasers. Heat should be a complete non-issue with phasers, and i'm not sure there's any advantage into having a mechanism rotate barrels so one can fire and one can charge when phasers don't really require a charge-up period, and you could fire off a continuous or wide beam.

I can maybe see it working if these gatling phasers were designed to shoot very powerful, bolt-type shots, although i'm not sure what the application of them would be. Rapid fire like that would be more about suppression or "crowd control" so to speak, both of which wouldn't need super-powerful shots that need to charge up.

Those power shots would be good for things like shields, but is there any advantage to rapidly pelting them with bolts of powerful shots over just shooting a sustained, powerful beam?

Is it possible to create a phaser that turns its fire into a projectile midstream (such as when it hits a hard surface)?

I would think anything is possible but i'm not sure it would necessarily be a "phaser" at that point. I'm not really sure what advantage this would have.

I do think a projectile weapon could be useful in Trek in certain applications, although would certainly be more along the lines of a railgun. There could be a fun high-tech version that has a replicator to supply ammo, but also a low-tech version that works a bit more old fashioned would probably be good for certain extreme environments.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Is it possible to create a phaser that turns its fire into a projectile midstream (such as when it hits a hard surface)?

Not that I know of.
Most Phasers operate in one mode at any given time

The modes that I can think of are:
1) Beam Mode (The most common of all modes, DOT{Damage Over Time})
2) Bolt Mode (Rapid Fire like we see on the Defiant Class in DS9)
3) Streak Mode (Longer Bolts like we see on the Refit Enterprise)
4) CIWS Mode (Like what we see in DISCO where the Beams fire so fast, that you don't see a traveling beam trail, mimics IRL CIWS guns)
5) Conical Mode (Used by Phaser Rifles to sweep a room-sized area for changelings)

The closest idea that I can think of is "Pulse Phaser" like beams that are similar to IRL "Pulse LASERs".
You have a thin constant beam, and giant pulses of energy that do significant chunks of damage in bursts.
But that hasn't really been protrayed yet.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's a reasonable answer, but i'm not sure it's really all that useful for phasers. Heat should be a complete non-issue with phasers,

The TNG Technical Manual says they use "Super Sonic Liquid Helium" to cool the Phaser Arrays.

"Liquid Helium" is a "Very Expensive" but powerful coolant IRL.
"Liquid Nitrogen" is the "Poor Man's" exotic coolant that is fairly common to attain as a civilian.
Having the Fluid move at "Super Sonic" speeds must mean you have one hell of a pump to push liquid around that fast to remove heat, especially given how many GW of energy that each Phaser Array can pump through it's emitters.

and i'm not sure there's any advantage into having a mechanism rotate barrels so one can fire and one can charge when phasers don't really require a charge-up period, and you could fire off a continuous or wide beam.

You wouldn't need that for a Phaser, you make the Phaser fixed and you have Multiple Barrels around the center point and run cooling through the entire thing.
Energy Bolts do require Charge Up, just watch any footage of any ship firing Bolts of energy.
It's not a continuous stream. And usually after a salvo, there is a short pause.
Otherwise, you'd just run a continuous beam.

I can maybe see it working if these gatling phasers were designed to shoot very powerful, bolt-type shots, although i'm not sure what the application of them would be.

Have you not noticed that StarFleet / Federation Shields are generally weak to "Bolt-type Energy Shots".
It doesn't matter if it's Plasma or Phasers, having that much Energy concentrated in one projectile makes it MUCH harder for Shields to block.

Beams are constant DOT (Damage Over Time) weapons.
Bolts are generally a "Burst Type" weapons where you attempt to over-whelm defenses in a split second with so much Energy Damage.

Rapid fire like that would be more about suppression or "crowd control" so to speak, both of which wouldn't need super-powerful shots that need to charge up.

"Crowd Control" can be done with any Beam Emission Type as long as you have enough energy to sustain the fire consistently, and for a long time.
It's more about Ammo / Energy Capacity than anything else.
What you shoot doesn't matter, how much reserves you have does matter.

Those power shots would be good for things like shields, but is there any advantage to rapidly pelting them with bolts of powerful shots over just shooting a sustained, powerful beam?

Depends on each Species/Ships Shield configurations.
Like I said before, most of StarFleet's vessels seem weak to Bolt Type shots while it can handle Continuous Beam or (DOT) fairly well.

Look at any time the Enterprise or Protagonists have been in trouble, it's usually through a "Bolt Type" Energy Blast.

It's like trying block damage from Tank/Artillery/Battle Ship Rounds, it's not going to happen if you get hit with enough of them.
It's such Over Whelming Force that it's hard to stop.

 

[XCV330]

Sorry, not to be pedantic, but shotguns do not shoot bullets, they shoot pellets collectively called shot, or in some cases a slug, which are different. All guns shoot projectiles, though, which is what you're getting at.

Until you get to truly oddball guns like the Taurus Judge revolver that shoots .45 Colt, .410 slugs or .410 shot.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Until you get to truly oddball guns like the Taurus Judge revolver that shoots .45 Colt, .410 slugs or .410 shot.

Since it is designed to fire other types of cartridges besides shotshells, is that technically considered a shotgun?

 

[Nerys Myk]

You just need one phaser with multiple modes to fit the situation. Like in the show.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Disc mode has to be an option

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Since it is designed to fire other types of cartridges besides shotshells, is that technically considered a shotgun?

Generally, no. Shotguns are apparently legally defined as smoothbore weapons and the Judge has a rifled barrel same as most if not all revolvers.

Apparently, California is one of the rare exceptions as that state has stricter rules.