Timeline: Enterprise B/C era & Cardassian War

[Dukhat]

Regardless, I'm staying with the version that O'Brien was in the ground action in 2347.

That is your choice.

There's that, and the fact that he became a transporter tech / engineer after, in the thick of battle with Cardassian forces, he figured out how to fix the transporter to save his squad.

Yep, that info coincides with the "Realm of Fear" statement, since he states that he didn't know a 'transporter from a turbolift in those days,' implying that this was the first time he used one. However, it also states that because of this, he got promoted to tactical officer and got a 'gold suit.' If this happened in 2347, O'Brien would have only been 19 years old. I simply don't see him being promoted to such a prestigious position that young, no matter what he did to save those officers. Also, when did Starfleet change their uniforms from the monster maroons to the TNG season 1 uniforms? Because getting a 'gold suit' implies that this would have happened at least before 2347 if we're going by that date.

PTSD is a funny thing. One can be triggered decades after living a perfectly normal life. He saw events unfolding just as they did in '47, and he said he could not allow it to happen again. PTSD triggered.

I'm not really buying that in this instance. I'm pretty sure that for 20 years Maxwell had to undergo lots of psychological evaluations in order to be the captain of a Starfleet vessel in all that time, both on the Rutledge and on the Phoenix. Already knowing how fragile his emotional state might become based on his experiences during the war, I don't see Starfleet allowing him to continue in command if they were concerned that he would have any kind of relapse.

But hey, then again this is the same Starfleet that let Picard continue in command after being turned into a Borg, so who knows.

 

[BrotherBenny]

2347 makes sense to me because we're basically told the 2350s was the last war decade and things had mostly calmed down by the early 2360s. The Cardassians had stopped expanding and were holding onto to existing territories, and the launch of a new Federation flagship makes everyone take a step back for a moment.

Everyone also waited to see what happened after Wolf 359, and learned the Federation was not to be trifled with. I'd also argue that O'Brien is older than Sisko. He's a Chief Petty Officer, I doubt there are any SCPO or MCPO in Starfleet so he's at the top of his field.

By 2369, the Cardassians were flexing their muscles again and this time the Federation said, here, have these planets and go away. They faced guerilla warfare by the Maquis and on Bajor, likely on their other other holdings too, and so the military chose to retreat instead of completely losing everything, aided by increased power by the civilian government.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Everyone also waited to see what happened after Wolf 359, and learned the Federation was not to be trifled with. I'd also argue that O'Brien is older than Sisko. He's a Chief Petty Officer, I doubt there are any SCPO or MCPO in Starfleet so he's at the top of his field.

Given that O'Brien specifically identifies himself as a "Chief Petty Officer" and "Senior Chief Specialist" in dialogue at various points, we can reasonably assert that at least the equivalent of a SCPO exists periodically in Starfleet.

 

[Sgt_G]

Star Trek as always been absolutely allergic to Enlisted troops, save for when it fit the plot. O'Brien is the lone exception, it seems.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And Janice Rand.

Probably Odo. Technically.

I suppose most of the Voyager Maquis being enlisted would count as "when it fits the plot".

 

[Blip]

I'm curious, do we know when Maxwell was transferred to command of the Phoenix (her registry implies a commissioning in the 2350s) or the fate of the Rutledge?

 

[Dukhat]

I'm curious, do we know when Maxwell was transferred to command of the Phoenix (her registry implies a commissioning in the 2350s) or the fate of the Rutledge?

Here's all we know.

1. The Rutledge (with Maxwell commanding) arrived after the Setlik III massacre, either in 2347 or 2362.

2. The Phoenix was commissioned in 2363.

3. There is a starship Rutledge in service in 2373, but we don't know if it's the same ship Maxwell commanded or if it's a new ship with the same name. If the original Rutledge was destroyed during Setlik III (either in 2347 or 2362), the latter would make sense.


So here is the scenario: Maxwell served as captain of the Rutledge either in 2347 or 2362. If 2347, then it seems he was captain of the ship for around 20 years before he was given the Phoenix (if he was the Phoenix's first captain, which is likely since it's such a new ship.) If 2362, then he was given the Phoenix almost immediately after the Setlik III massacre, possibly because the Rutledge was engaged in combat and was damaged or destroyed. The second scenario makes more sense to me, especially since O'Brien also left the ship to serve on the new Enterprise-D. Also, we don't know how old the Rutledge is, since we never saw the ship and don't know what its registry number is other than from non-canon material.

There's also the possibility that there was a gap in time from when Maxwell gave up command of the Rutledge and took command of the Phoenix where he didn't command a ship at all either after 2347 or 2362 (like what happened with Picard and the Stargazer), but there's even less information about that, so I'm choosing to ignore that as a possibility for now.

 

[Sgt_G]

The Rutledge was probably a Frigate, so Maxwell would have been a Commander (O-5) while its CO.

 

[Blip]

Here's all we know.

1. The Rutledge (with Maxwell commanding) arrived after the Setlik III massacre, either in 2347 or 2362.

2. The Phoenix was commissioned in 2363.

3. There is a starship Rutledge in service in 2373, but we don't know if it's the same ship Maxwell commanded or if it's a new ship with the same name. If the original Rutledge was destroyed during Setlik III (either in 2347 or 2362), the latter would make sense.


So here is the scenario: Maxwell served as captain of the Rutledge either in 2347 or 2362. If 2347, then it seems he was captain of the ship for around 20 years before he was given the Phoenix (if he was the Phoenix's first captain, which is likely since it's such a new ship.) If 2362, then he was given the Phoenix almost immediately after the Setlik III massacre, possibly because the Rutledge was engaged in combat and was damaged or destroyed. The second scenario makes more sense to me, especially since O'Brien also left the ship to serve on the new Enterprise-D. Also, we don't know how old the Rutledge is, since we never saw the ship and don't know what its registry number is other than from non-canon material.

There's also the possibility that there was a gap in time from when Maxwell gave up command of the Rutledge and took command of the Phoenix where he didn't command a ship at all either after 2347 or 2362 (like what happened with Picard and the Stargazer), but there's even less information about that, so I'm choosing to ignore that as a possibility for now.

Ugh. More registry anachronisms. Considering 1) the registry plaque that date is taken from didn't appear onscreen in sufficient detail to get any info, 2) it was already botched in that it re-used the motto from the USS Excelsior, and 3) for a "new" ship the Phoenix is disturbingly out of date in terms of shields, I think I'll save myself the headache and ignore both the plaque and the needless complications it causes, and leave the Phoenix as a 2350s release.

That said, I do agree that the simultaneous transfer of Maxwell and O'Brien makes sense, so personally I'll continue with the idea that Maxwell was simply taking command of an existing (if bigger and slightly newer vessel) in '63. As for a gap in commands, well that's nixed if we assume Maxwell and O'Brien departed at the same time.

I personally have no issue with the existing general consensus that the Rutledge was a New Orleans class vessel; design and the registry fits, and tbh I quite like that clunky little mini-Galaxy.

Thanks for the detailed response in any case!

 

[Dukhat]

I get that the 'frigate' idea comes from the non-canon assumption that the Rutledge is a New Orleans class starship, and other ships of that class were referred to as frigates in the first season of TNG. But really, we don't know that for certain about the Rutledge, because we have never seen it or know canonically what class it was. There was a point where it almost became an Excelsior class in DS9's "For the Uniform" before the script was changed and the ship was renamed the Malinche.

 

[Blip]

I get that the 'frigate' idea comes from the non-canon assumption that the Rutledge is a New Orleans class starship, and other ships of that class were referred to as frigates in the first season of TNG. But really, we don't know that for certain about the Rutledge, because we have never seen it or know canonically what class it was. There was a point where it almost became an Excelsior class in DS9's "For the Uniform" before the script was changed and the ship was renamed the Malinche.

Thank goodness for that - the last thing we need is Yet Another Excelsior at the expense of other, far too infrequently glimpsed classes

ETA: on the other hand it was an Excelsior we saw regardless, so FML

 

[Dukhat]

Ugh. More registry anachronisms. Considering 1) the registry plaque that date is taken from didn't appear onscreen in sufficient detail to get any info, 2) it was already botched in that it re-used the motto from the USS Excelsior, and 3) for a "new" ship the Phoenix is disturbingly out of date in terms of shields, I think I'll save myself the headache and ignore both the plaque and the needless complications it causes, and leave the Phoenix as a 2350s release.

I dunno. NCC-65420 isn't such a stretch for a ship commissioned in 2363, considering that the Tsiolkovsky NCC-53911 was commissioned in the same year (although it was supposed to have been a new design and not a reuse of the Grissom model.)

 

[Blip]

I dunno. NCC-65420 isn't such a stretch for a ship commissioned in 2363, considering that the Tsiolkovsky NCC-53911 was commissioned in the same year (although it was supposed to have been a new design and not a reuse of the Grissom model.)

Honestly, I'm simply ignoring the odd ones out; like the Prometheus, for example. Just wish there weren't so many slip ups... but at the end of the day, TV production was an exceedingly rushed affair at that point still, so it's easy enough afaic to forgive (and ignore) miscommunications between depts, rewrites, etc.

 

[CaptChris42]

2347 makes sense to me because we're basically told the 2350s was the last war decade and things had mostly calmed down by the early 2360s. The Cardassians had stopped expanding and were holding onto to existing territories, and the launch of a new Federation flagship makes everyone take a step back for a moment.

Everyone also waited to see what happened after Wolf 359, and learned the Federation was not to be trifled with. I'd also argue that O'Brien is older than Sisko. He's a Chief Petty Officer, I doubt there are any SCPO or MCPO in Starfleet so he's at the top of his field.

By 2369, the Cardassians were flexing their muscles again and this time the Federation said, here, have these planets and go away. They faced guerilla warfare by the Maquis and on Bajor, likely on their other other holdings too, and so the military chose to retreat instead of completely losing everything, aided by increased power by the civilian government.

I have no doubt SOME tensions existed back then, and maybe even a short brushfire war.

Novels also mention Riva Prime and a number of other longstanding incidents. Also, Miranda Vigo's son grew up on a world that experienced refugees and probable attacks itself, circa 2358.

As for O'Brien's age... we concrete know he entered Starfleet in 2351, per the episode 'Rules of Engagement', which would seem to outright rule out a 2347 date. We are not CERTAIN of his birth year, however... which is mainly listed as 2328, but he is occasionally implied to be the same age as Sisko too.

For the Phoenix and Nebula class ships... I assume the Nebula MAYBE launched circa 2356, and the Phoenix in 2363. The New Orleans likely entered service circa 2352 or a bit earlier, meantime.

That's going by my own interpretations of probable number bumps per year, but it seems mostly consistent thus far. The Tsiolkovsky doesn't fit the pattern however, implying some preassigned block numbers that fill up more slowly than others. And my method was only ever a rough predictive guide.

O'Brien is also said, in peripheral guides, to have served on four ships before DS9 as I recall... implying a fair few pre 2362. At least two were Excelsior-class, per the 'Intelligence Gathering' comic, as I also recall. And I also assume hostilities were mostly non-existent from 2363 onward.

Suffice to say - the whole topic continues to interest me... if only because some time this decade I may FINALLY write that fanfic novel I rather want to, on the topic... if time allows

 

[BrotherBenny]

I have no doubt SOME tensions existed back then, and maybe even a short brushfire war.

Novels also mention Riva Prime and a number of other longstanding incidents. Also, Miranda Vigo's son grew up on a world that experienced refugees and probable attacks itself, circa 2358.

As for O'Brien's age... we concrete know he entered Starfleet in 2351, per the episode 'Rules of Engagement', which would seem to outright rule out a 2347 date. We are not CERTAIN of his birth year, however... which is mainly listed as 2328, but he is occasionally implied to be the same age as Sisko too.

For the Phoenix and Nebula class ships... I assume the Nebula MAYBE launched circa 2356, and the Phoenix in 2363. The New Orleans likely entered service circa 2352 or a bit earlier, meantime.

That's going by my own interpretations of probable number bumps per year, but it seems mostly consistent thus far. The Tsiolkovsky doesn't fit the pattern however, implying some preassigned block numbers that fill up more slowly than others. And my method was only ever a rough predictive guide.

O'Brien is also said, in peripheral guides, to have served on four ships before DS9 as I recall... implying a fair few pre 2362. At least two were Excelsior-class, per the 'Intelligence Gathering' comic, as I also recall. And I also assume hostilities were mostly non-existence from 2363 onward.

Suffice to say - the whole topic continues to interest me... if only because some time this decade I may FINALLY write that fanfic novel I rather want to, on the topic... if time allows

It's impossible to rise to chief petty officer that quickly if he entered enlisted service in '51 (and already be chief when the D launched in 64). I think it makes more sense that he re-enlisted in 51, probably taking a short break after his previous tour was up after the horrors of Setlik in 47.

 

[CaptChris42]

It's impossible to rise to chief petty officer that quickly if he entered enlisted service in '51 (and already be chief when the D launched in 64). I think it makes more sense that he re-enlisted in 51, probably taking a short break after his previous tour was up after the horrors of Setlik in 47.

Possible, I guess. Starfleet isn't quite like any service we know, meantime, and advancement might not happen in quite the way we have precedent for.

We know O'Brien has a history of risk taking and gallantry, meantime... which accounts for some jumps. How that translates to technical expertise and diligence is another unclear matter, for other career advancements.

We do also have him as 'acting tactical officer' after one of the Setlik III events, though, which may explain some pip inconsistencies in early TNG.

However you look at it, though, there are significant contradictions. Could O'Brien have been on the Rutledge for 15 to 16 years straight, and seen two Setlik III skirmishes? Possible, but highly unlikely however. Nor is it clear what specifically got him first involved with transporters and emergency rescue ops.

However you generally look at it, I guess some things have to involve a pinch of salt somewhere?

Nothing also states Setlik III was the START of the wars, either, of course - but could have ignited one more round of heightened hostility, feasibly.