What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[cooleddie74]

I would gladly concede on the "Starfleet is the military" issue, if someone can point to me who the Federation's military is and why it always needs the support of Starfleet, to the point that we never see this military.

Starfleet's always been the Federation's military and since 2161, and even before that date United Earth relied on Starfleet for most of its extraplanetary defense, as there were only so many trained and active MACOs that could be assembled to serve on the limited number of deep space-capable vessels that Earth could put into service in the early-to-mid-22nd century.

Starfleet has military ranks, weapons and a command structure for reasons, and those aren't because of scientific survey missions and diplomatic assignments.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Modern militaries do all those things, they just don't try to deceive themselves on what they are. Starfleet, like modern militaries, has access to all those other things, because those other things can be important assets come war time.

That's what StarFleet does.

StarFleet has a position on it's vessel for the A&A (Archaelogy & Anthroplogy) Officer in the 23rd Century.

Do you think the US Navy would have a billet for that on one of it's War Ships? Doubtful.

The US Navy wouldn't need that kind of billet, it would definitely have a few departments on land, but not a dedicated spot on it's vessel.

When the rubber hits the road, Starfleet is a frightening military force. You don't hang with Klingons or the Jem'Hadar without being formidable warriors, in your own rite. Being formidable warriors takes lots and lots of practice. Lots of time and effort.

I concur, StarFleet can be frightening.

But StarFleet has a weak Ground Game in comparison to many of it's rivals in the 23rd & 24th century, they are more powerful in Space Battles with it's StarShips & StarBases, but far weaker when it comes to ground operations where they have to send "Boots on the Ground".

How many times have we seen StarFleet Ground Forces on the back foot compared to be the one on the offensive and winning?

More often than not, StarFleet Ground Forces are pretty weak in the 23rd & 24th century since they got rid of the MACO's.

Which was probably a long term mistake in StarFleet's decisions.

 

[XCV330]

That's what StarFleet does.

StarFleet has a position on it's vessel for the A&A (Archaelogy & Anthroplogy) Officer in the 23rd Century.

Do you think the US Navy would have a billet for that on one of it's War Ships? Doubtful.

USACE Archaeological Program

When you think “archaeology” do you think “U.S. Army Corps of Engineers?”Probably not. Archaeology brings up images of Indiana Jones, dusty tombs and g...

www.army.mil

You could have googled this in less than five seconds.
but you didNt

 

[BillJ]

More often than not, StarFleet Ground Forces are pretty weak in the 23rd & 24th century since they got rid of the MACO's.

Folks of AR-558 held their ground pretty well, all things considered.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You're kind of way out of your understanding, with respect.
ever heard of DARPA? The amount of research they do and fund, some of it really advanced stuff pushing into fringe areas is amazing

Yes I know of DARPA, they're funded by the US Military.

They hire scientists from Academia to do the R&D for them.

The heads of DARPA are usually a civilian appointee from the Executive Branch.

All of the main branches maintain their own historian's offices. They have to maintain centers of learning for training. Coast Guard in particular has a complicated role since it falls under both civilian control and Navy control depending on its mission and state of peace/war.

Yes, I know they have their own Historian Offices, but they don't have active Historians out on the front line or on StarShips doing R&D.

That's the difference, the size & scope of those academic departments in StarFleet compared to what the US Military has.

there are military journalists too. You may have heard of one: Chief Petty Officer Alex Haley, USCG.. he wrote Roots.

seriously.. that statement is just wrong.

But he wrote "Roots" after his Coast Guard Career.
That was a personal story about his families geneology.

That's seperate from his literay works in the Coast Guard.
They had to create Journalist rating for him given how good he was at it.
That's a seperate issue from his more "Grand Works" as a literary author.

Folks of AR-558 held their ground pretty well, all things considered.

They were lucky that reinforcements finally came in.

Also Benjamin Sisko brought in talented engineers that changed the battlefield situation where they were able to take control of the Houdini Mines that the Jem Hadar love to use.

Seriously, those are some amazing mines.

 

[Tallguy]

But when they are not doing those types of actions, they are not in the "Military Mind Set" at that moment in time, they are free to perform their duties as needed.

Aspects that modern Military aren't willing to do or tasked to do.

Those who are IRL Operators / Security / Military Types usually aren't the most "Intellectual Types".

I think on the last outbreak of this topic I asked why there were people who were so dead set against Starfleet being called a military despite the fact that it performed exactly the same tasks as militaries both modern and ancient. People don't seem to care about the job, they care about the NAME.

I think it's attitudes like this that give us our answer.

It reminds me of after the tsunami in 2004 (have I got this right? I apologize for a failing memory unless it's Star Trek) the United States sent an aircraft carrier. And there was scoffing at the "military mindset" of the U.S. What were we going to do? SHOOT at the tsunami?

Ignoring the fact that a modern aircraft carrier had supplies, fresh water (desalination plants, yes?), power, lodging, and oodles of other things that are useful in such a scenario. It's the closest thing we have to a starship.

Yes, I know they have their own Historian Offices, but they don't have active Historians out on the front line or on StarShips doing R&D.

Well, we're not colonizing out on the edge of the unknown as much anymore.

 

[XCV330]

you know.. nevermind.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You could have googled this in less than five seconds.
but you didNt

I already went past it on my Googling.

It's a one off side department within the US Army Corp of Engineers.

It's not on the same scale as what StarFleet does where every Exploratory Vessel has a Archaeology Officer that reports backs it's finding to a central Archaeology Division within StarFleet.

It's on a different scale of operation completely.

 

[BillJ]

It's on a different scale of operation completely

Because one is planetary, the other galactic. Basic goals are still the same.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think on the last outbreak of this topic I asked why there were people who were so dead set against Starfleet being called a military despite the fact that it performed exactly the same tasks as militaries both modern and ancient. People don't seem to care about the job, they care about the NAME.

There is this prevailing belief among certain Roddenberry ideologues that military = bad simply because of how TNG tried to rise above it.

I think it was born out of a sort of post-Iran Contra, post Cold War, belief that we could be 'better'. And it was probably also clapback against the Stalonegger Fuck Yeah clamor that permeated the 80s pop culture zeitgeist.

I've always found it to be a bit reductive myself. A military isn't inherently bad. And, personally, I kind of miss certain aspects of the Stalonegger machismo a little.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

There is this prevailing belief among certain Roddenberry ideologues that military = bad simply because of how TNG tried to rise above it.

I think it was born out of a sort of post-Iran Contra, post Cold War, belief that we could be 'better'. And it was probably also clapback against the Stalonegger Fuck Yeah clamor that permeated the 80s pop culture zeitgeist.

I've always found it to be a bit reductive myself. A military isn't inherently bad. And, personally, I kind of miss certain aspects of the Stalonegger machismo a little.

The military is fine when used in the right way, blame the Civilian Governance in charge when they use it in a bad way.

Because remember, it's the Civilian Government that has sole authority over the Military.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Not in a military dictatorship.

But like what does that have to do with anything?

 

[BillJ]

The military is fine when used in the right way, blame the Civilian Governance in charge when they use it in a bad way.

Because remember, it's the Civilian Government that has sole authority over the Military.

Then there should be no issue classifying Starfleet as a military.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Then there should be no issue classifying Starfleet as a military.

Then why didn't the UFP classify them as the Military?

Why does Captain Jean-Luc Picard, the Captain of the FlagShip of the UFP's StarFleet state that they aren't the Military?

Why does he get to do that?

There's no excuse for him to not know if StarFleet is a Military or Isn't one.

Spoiler: Star Trek TNG -- Starfleet Is Not the Military

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[BillJ]

Then why didn't the UFP classify them as the Military?

We actually don’t know how the Federation classifies Starfleet.

Why does Captain Jean-Luc Picard, the Captain of the FlagShip of the UFP's StarFleet state that they aren't the Military?

Picard is welcome to his personal musings, that doesn’t make them binding.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

We actually don’t know how the Federation classifies Starfleet.

Here's how it's written on Memory Alpha for StarFleet.

Starfleet was the deep space exploratory and defense service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions included the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, and knowledge of all areas of study, both scientific and non-scientific. Starfleet's ancillary duties included the defense of the Federation and the facilitation of Federation diplomacy.

I think that's how the UFP would Classify & Label StarFleet.

Defense / Military is some where in the descriptor of what it does, but it's literally one of it's many duties.

Picard is welcome to his personal musings, that doesn’t make them binding.

So he's bloviating false hoods to a direct attache sent by StarFleet Command.

 

[XCV330]

We actually don’t know how the Federation classifies Starfleet.

No, but we have a flag officer who does know, and he spells it out simply:
Pike: You understand what the Federation is, don't you? It's important. It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada.

That's pretty much the cannon answer

an armada is defined as a fleet of warships. Anything else is just poetic license. Starfleet is a fleet of warships for peacekeeping and humanitarian missions. Nowhere does pike even mention science. Starfleet is military. It's cannon. Whatever lofty hypocritical ideals Picard had, that wasn't the reality and it certainly wasn't policy previously.

 

[BillJ]

I think that's how the UFP would Classify & Label StarFleet.

I don’t much care what Memory Alpha thinks. I’ve watched a lot of this stuff over the course of fifty years and can make determinations based on the onscreen material.

So he's bloviating false hoods to a direct attache sent by StarFleet Command.

Opinions aren’t against Starfleet regulations.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think that's how the UFP would Classify & Label StarFleet.

Actually, they'd label it "Starfleet".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's pretty much the cannon answer

an armada is defined as a fleet of warships. Anything else is just poetic license. Starfleet is a fleet of warships for peacekeeping and humanitarian missions. Nowhere does pike even mention science. Starfleet is military. It's cannon. Whatever lofty hypocritical ideals Picard had, that wasn't the reality and it certainly wasn't policy previously.

Then what changed between the 23rd & 24th century that the "Poster Boy" for StarFleet Captains gets to give out a answer that is so different from his predecessor?