Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

[FPAlpha]

No doubt, I agree Wesley is the far better character. I was just struck by how Buck seemed to echo Wesley, if only on a superficial level. In fact, until the aforementioned conversation between Buck and Wilson, Buck didn't have much substance at all. Hopefully the show will build on from that moment.

I have rather seen the other guy, the sleazebag, as his right hand man given that he has far more screentime and he's a different character to the superefficient/cold charactertypes of Wesley and Buck. I think it was a good choice to have a different archetype be prominent in Fisk's inner circle. Having such a little shit is very entertaining to watch and while he started off a bit inexperienced and incompetent his mistake earlier sort of switched him into full on weasel mode.

 

[Turtletrekker]

No doubt, I agree Wesley is the far better character. I was just struck by how Buck seemed to echo Wesley, if only on a superficial level. In fact, until the aforementioned conversation between Buck and Wilson, Buck didn't have much substance at all. Hopefully the show will build on from that moment.

Kirsten and Cherry show their first signs of any real substance in this episode as well. Surely not a coincidence that this is the first episode developed solely by the new creative team.

 

[FPAlpha]

Kirsten and Cherry show their first signs of any real substance in this episode as well. Surely not a coincidence that this is the first episode developed solely by the new creative team.

Do you have a link to that? First i hear of it and i'd like to know more. It sure would explain why this season is so all over the place in my opinion.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Do you have a link to that? First i hear of it and i'd like to know more. It sure would explain why this season is so all over the place in my opinion.

Short version is that the original iteration of Daredevil Born Again was conceived of as a soft reboot rather than a continuation of the Netflix show. During the actors and writer strikes, the higher ups at Marvel looked at the six episodes that were shot before the strikes and decided that it wasn't working. They fired the previous staff and brought in a new staff. The new showrunner worked on the Netflix Punisher show, so he knows how that world is supposed to work and had a vested interest in seeing that world continue.

The original version did not have Foggy, Karen, Punisher or Bullseye and Vanessa had been recast. They completely reshot the pilot with the Netflix characters and actors and reworked some of the existing footage into their new direction. The only episode from the original vision that is completely untouched was episode 5, the bank robbery episode.

Daredevil: Born Again showrunner and star Charlie Cox address why they rehauled the Marvel show: "It wasn't in line with what Daredevil had been established to be"

The show had a creative overhaul

www.gamesradar.com

 

[Saul]

Another episode I really enjoyed. I just love this version of Daredevil in general I guess. So I am having a great time with this series. Such a solid take on the character, Cox and D'Onofrio nailing it each time.

I'm not sure if this is the last we will see of Muse based on how quickly it ended. I sense it's not over and there may be another Muse out there.

 

[Commander Troi]

Did Vanessa try to have Wilson killed? It sure looked like it to me!

Muse's storyline seemed rushed, but I have a tickle in my head that says it's not over yet.

 

[FPAlpha]

Short version is that the original iteration of Daredevil Born Again was conceived of as a soft reboot rather than a continuation of the Netflix show. During the actors and writer strikes, the higher ups at Marvel looked at the six episodes that were shot before the strikes and decided that it wasn't working. They fired the previous staff and brought in a new staff. The new showrunner worked on the Netflix Punisher show, so he knows how that world is supposed to work and had a vested interest in seeing that world continue.

The original version did not have Foggy, Karen, Punisher or Bullseye and Vanessa had been recast. They completely reshot the pilot with the Netflix characters and actors and reworked some of the existing footage into their new direction. The only episode from the original vision that is completely untouched was episode 5, the bank robbery episode.

Daredevil: Born Again showrunner and star Charlie Cox address why they rehauled the Marvel show: "It wasn't in line with what Daredevil had been established to be"

The show had a creative overhaul

www.gamesradar.com

Yes i know about the production difficulties, i just wanted to know from where you know that it was this episode where they had completely new material. The article you linked doesn't state that.

Did Vanessa try to have Wilson killed? It sure looked like it to me!

Muse's storyline seemed rushed, but I have a tickle in my head that says it's not over yet.

I don't think so. That mobster came to the restaurant and stepped into a trap, so Fisk knew he would come exactly to this restaurant where he had dinner. How else would have Fisk known he would be coming if he hadn't planned it together with Vanessa? He even tells his henchman to ask Vanessa if he should bring her something from the restaurant.

Yes, Muse could have been better handled with a longer introduction and buildup. He felt just dropped into the show for the sake of needing a creepy villain.

 

[USS Firefly]

I like this season so far, I only preferred that they kept Foggy, because he was so good and the new characters don't do much to me.

 

[JD]

I don't think so. That mobster came to the restaurant and stepped into a trap, so Fisk knew he would come exactly to this restaurant where he had dinner. How else would have Fisk known he would be coming if he hadn't planned it together with Vanessa? He even tells his henchman to ask Vanessa if he should bring her something from the restaurant.

This is the part I wasn't as sure about, there is a good chance you're right, but I wasn't sure if he found out Vanessa was up to and was ready for her guy, and the whole thing about asking her what she wants from the restaurant was his way of telling her he survived and was coming for her now.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This is the part I wasn't as sure about, there is a good chance you're right, but I wasn't sure if he found out Vanessa was up to and was ready for her guy, and the whole thing about asking her what she wants from the restaurant was his way of telling her he survived and was coming for her now.

Honestly I figure it was a trap because I can't really see Vanessa wanting to team up with a chuckle fuck that wanted to kill her husband just to not pay $2.8 million for something he was told not to do to begin with becuase he had an inflated sense of importance. Especially since he kept trying that shit AFTER finding out the original $1.8 million was her idea.

 

[JD]

That's true, but she does seem to be getting frustrated with Wilson, and the whole speech about how things were better under her seemed like it might have gotten to her.

 

[Tuskin38]

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[Turtletrekker]

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Well, that's pretty cool for pre-viz, but I disagree with the poster that this is somehow "one the best DD fight scene ever". If this were a final product, I would call it a mediocre fan film.

 

[CaptainWacky]

I've enjoyed the season a reasonable amount, but I thinkk cracks have been showing as it's gone on and unfortunately episode 7 was the weakest episode. I can't really say exactly why, but there was a line early on where Matt said "this all feels fake" to Heather and I thought "yeah, it kind of does." I'm sure it's because of the reshoots but there's some weird conversations where the things the characters say just don't seem to follow on from each other? I noticed this in the Matt and Heather stuff. I don't usually get too bothered by ADR but I thought it was very noticable in a few places. And then having Bastian's first proper scene ALSO be the scene where we find out that he's Muse (and that he's been going to Heather for months...and she somehow inspired Muse?) felt so rushed and long. Who knows how many scenes they had together in the original version of the show that got cut.

The fight between Daredevicl and Muse this episode was absolutely awful and barely comprehensible with all the quick cuts.

The scene with Matt and Cherry was really annoying too, like why didn't Matt just point out "I saved a teenage girl from a serial killer, cut me some slack"? I'm guessing they cut scenes explaining why Cherry was so angry at him putting the suit back on.

It's also become noticable (to me!) that Fisk and Vanesse barely have any scenes together and the reason must be because all of Ayelet Zurer's scenes were added in reshoots.

The show's just feeling really Frankensteined together to me now and I know the reason why, but I wish they'd got it right in the writing stage so that they didn't end up having to reshoot half of it.

But again I did like the early episodes and hopefully the next two will be back to the higher quality stuff if they're entirely new (shot by the seconds of showrunners) and not stitched together.

 

[JD]

Well, that's pretty cool for pre-viz, but I disagree with the poster that this is somehow "one the best DD fight scene ever". If this were a final product, I would call it a mediocre fan film.

Yeah, the choreography was cool, but everything else about that was pretty rough, which is fine because just thrown together fairly quickly to work out the cheorography.
And I'm not sure what they're so pissed about, most of the fighting was still them in the final episode, there were just a few little CGI tweaks here and there.

 

[FPAlpha]

I've enjoyed the season a reasonable amount, but I thinkk cracks have been showing as it's gone on and unfortunately episode 7 was the weakest episode. I can't really say exactly why, but there was a line early on where Matt said "this all feels fake" to Heather and I thought "yeah, it kind of does." I'm sure it's because of the reshoots but there's some weird conversations where the things the characters say just don't seem to follow on from each other? I noticed this in the Matt and Heather stuff. I don't usually get too bothered by ADR but I thought it was very noticable in a few places. And then having Bastian's first proper scene ALSO be the scene where we find out that he's Muse (and that he's been going to Heather for months...and she somehow inspired Muse?) felt so rushed and long. Who knows how many scenes they had together in the original version of the show that got cut.

The fight between Daredevicl and Muse this episode was absolutely awful and barely comprehensible with all the quick cuts.

The scene with Matt and Cherry was really annoying too, like why didn't Matt just point out "I saved a teenage girl from a serial killer, cut me some slack"? I'm guessing they cut scenes explaining why Cherry was so angry at him putting the suit back on.

It's also become noticable (to me!) that Fisk and Vanesse barely have any scenes together and the reason must be because all of Ayelet Zurer's scenes were added in reshoots.

The show's just feeling really Frankensteined together to me now and I know the reason why, but I wish they'd got it right in the writing stage so that they didn't end up having to reshoot half of it.

But again I did like the early episodes and hopefully the next two will be back to the higher quality stuff if they're entirely new (shot by the seconds of showrunners) and not stitched together.

Pretty much how i feel about this season too and in addition i also (still) feel cheated by them making fuss on including the OG crew only for Foggy to die and Karen basically written out of this season ( it seems she may have a bigger role in the second season). I fear it'll be the same with Frank Castle - one scene so far and it's been mostly a remake of a scene they already had and i figure for the finale it'll be Castle just tearing through the Punisher Cop gang in a bloody spectacle.

It seems while Feige made the call on binning the first iteration of the show while Marvel regrouped they couldn't make a clean start, maybe for financial reasons and so asked/forced the showrunners to integrate some of the already shot material and it weighs the season down noticeably. There is no story flow in this season like it was on Netflix, it all seems a bit disjointed. Maybe they'll still stick the landing now that apparently they have moved on from the old material and can do their own thing but i hope season 2 will be an improvement. I would even overlook using a comics trope by having Foggy's death be a fakeout somehow just to get the old gang together because the new one is just not working for me.

 

[Xerxes82]

It seems while Feige made the call on binning the first iteration of the show while Marvel regrouped they couldn't make a clean start, maybe for financial reasons and so asked/forced the showrunners to integrate some of the already shot material

This is absolutely the case. MOST of episodes 2-7 was shot pre-retool. Episode 5 was aired completely untouched, the rest have been re-edited or have new material to make changes or bridge gaps. Anything with Vanessa is new, because different actress.

You can actually see it if you're looking for it. Rewatch the scene where Fisk learns DD is back, and saved someone from Muse. In the originally shot footage, the victim was male. So that entire scene with Fisk, Buck and Blake had to ADR "she" and "her" into the scene, and uses cutaway reaction shots to a person not speaking so they can add more dialogue because they changed it to Angela del Toro upon reshoots.

Episodes 8-9 are the first time we're getting entirely post-retool material. It remains to be seen if they can turn out a coherent story based on what they've strung together here. There are a lot of interesting ideas struggling to go anywhere, but plenty of places they could launch into some really meaty stuff in these last two.

That said, I'm not expecting much of a conclusion. From what I'm gathering, next year is less of a season 2 and more of a season 1, part 2.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Apparently there are rights issues to using the Kingpin character that seemingly prevents him from being in a movie.

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[The Nth Doctor]

Damn, you beat me to it! I was about the post the same thing.

...and this sucks. Stupid rights.

 

[Skipper]

So... 3 months of taekwondo as a kid is enough to keep one of the MCU's best martial artists at bay? I love a good fight as much as anyone, but guys like Bullseye should be on par with Daredevil, not some art school reject.