It can lead, to clarify. There are always other factors but the drive for punishment I see in many, and some go to law enforcement.
Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
Yeah but not all. Power corrupts as they say and it doesn't matter if you are a police officer or some Special Force dude geared up to the gills on a mission - it's the sentiment that's problematic because it is a fine line between obeying the laws and rules of engagement that doesn't allow personal justice vs letting loose and just emptying your weapon into the bad guys in a screwed up way to bring justice.
This is what Punisher represents, a form of justice that we as a democratic society should have moved beyond and developed into law & order. We don't want to be the Wild West anymore, where the guy with the quicker draw or better aim makes the rules.
However given how this system fails often enough or has a reputation of letting the really bad guys go on technicalities and because they had really good lawyers makes people feel their system has no power or is actively endangering them because it let a murderer go because the cop arresting him made a small mistake that invalidated the evidence.
The Punisher is the representation of that feeling to bring people to justice but unlike the Punisher, who does his due dilligence into researching his targets so he doesn't "punish" the innocent i fear people in reality wearing that logo and being fans of the Punisher creed won't sometimes make these distinctions and that's the danger.
For all of my issues with the Punisher and why I ultimately do not like the character, this is precisely why he's infinitely better than his fanboys, both in-universe and in the real world.
I can see why they did two episodes on the same night. I really enjoyed that first episode, but on its own it would have been a bit of a momentum killer. Well, moving forward from here, the show should be completely the vision of the new showrunners.
I love that Jack was out there doing his Swordsman thing. And I also love that it was sort of a nudge nudge wink wink thing at the audience, because if you didn't watch Hawkeye, the Swordsman thing would not have registered at all, which is the way these sort of things should be done.
Interesting that Deborah Ann Wohl and Eldon Henson were listed in the opening credits, but outside of the recap, they weren't in the episode.
I love that Jack was out there doing his Swordsman thing. And I also love that it was sort of a nudge nudge wink wink thing at the audience, because if you didn't watch Hawkeye, the Swordsman thing would not have registered at all, which is the way these sort of things should be done.
Interesting that Deborah Ann Wohl and Eldon Henson were listed in the opening credits, but outside of the recap, they weren't in the episode.
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Wow, what a powerhouse doubleheader, vastly different in tone, yet intertwined in themes.
I love a good bank robbery story and I liked how "With Interest" echoed one of my favorite films of the genre, Inside Man, right down to the wisecracking ringleader walking right out of the bank in plain sight. But unlike Dalton Russell, Devlin doesn't escape with the "moral high ground"...or unscathed. I loved watching Matt neatly maneuver his way through the bank heist to slowly gain the upper hand on the robbers, carefully balancing the calm, blind solicitor façade with the skilled combat fighter in small doses. And yet, after the events of the previous episodes, the barely contained rage within himself finally broke through at the end when Matt caught up with Devlin and delivered a brutal form of justice. I'm terrified to see where Matt will go down that path, but more on that later because...
Yusuf Khan! Well played, trailer editor(s) on successfully hiding the fact that his appearance coincided with the bank robbery. It was delight to see him appear on the show and I particularly reviled in the light opening scene between him and Matt that lovingly dovetailed into his doting on his daughter Kamala...and showing off the Funko Pop of her! I imagine we won't get to see it in a future episode on either this show or even a second season of Ms. Marvel (if we ever get one...), but I really want to see Matt coming over to Jersey City for dinner.
...and now back to the darkness. We knew this was coming but Muse has now fully arrived and the results are grime. I knew the murals would play an important thematic role in the series but I did not expect them to play an active role in the story, revealing their vile nature: Muse used his (60!) victims blood as part of his spray paint. This episode went down a serious Se7en rabbit hole (if only visually), right down to Muse's creepy artwork and murder dungeon. Despite Angela's kidnapping and her initial blood draining, I was relieved the show didn't lean too far in the graphic nature but it certainly toed the line. Muse's story isn't over so I hope the show continues to stay on this side of the line of graphic imagery and violence.
More to the point, Daredevil is finally back...but he's a far more brutal vigilante than he was on Netflix. Matt's justified fury and shame, as called out by Frank last week, is on full display and the only thing that stayed his hand from committing the ultimate sin was saving Angela's life. This time. What will he do when there isn't an innocent girl's life on the line? Will he hold back? Especially considering he allowed Muse to escape in order to save Angela. Or will he continue to become more and more like Kingpin and let his rage take full control? What would Sister Maggie think (who got a nameless callback in the previous episode!)? Or Father Lantom? Or Foggy? Is the obvious answer Karen returning to become Matt's saving grace or will this show go in a different direction? Especially if Xerxes82's theory about Vanessa is correct and Matt discovers the truth?
I love a good bank robbery story and I liked how "With Interest" echoed one of my favorite films of the genre, Inside Man, right down to the wisecracking ringleader walking right out of the bank in plain sight. But unlike Dalton Russell, Devlin doesn't escape with the "moral high ground"...or unscathed. I loved watching Matt neatly maneuver his way through the bank heist to slowly gain the upper hand on the robbers, carefully balancing the calm, blind solicitor façade with the skilled combat fighter in small doses. And yet, after the events of the previous episodes, the barely contained rage within himself finally broke through at the end when Matt caught up with Devlin and delivered a brutal form of justice. I'm terrified to see where Matt will go down that path, but more on that later because...
Yusuf Khan! Well played, trailer editor(s) on successfully hiding the fact that his appearance coincided with the bank robbery. It was delight to see him appear on the show and I particularly reviled in the light opening scene between him and Matt that lovingly dovetailed into his doting on his daughter Kamala...and showing off the Funko Pop of her! I imagine we won't get to see it in a future episode on either this show or even a second season of Ms. Marvel (if we ever get one...), but I really want to see Matt coming over to Jersey City for dinner.
...and now back to the darkness. We knew this was coming but Muse has now fully arrived and the results are grime. I knew the murals would play an important thematic role in the series but I did not expect them to play an active role in the story, revealing their vile nature: Muse used his (60!) victims blood as part of his spray paint. This episode went down a serious Se7en rabbit hole (if only visually), right down to Muse's creepy artwork and murder dungeon. Despite Angela's kidnapping and her initial blood draining, I was relieved the show didn't lean too far in the graphic nature but it certainly toed the line. Muse's story isn't over so I hope the show continues to stay on this side of the line of graphic imagery and violence.
More to the point, Daredevil is finally back...but he's a far more brutal vigilante than he was on Netflix. Matt's justified fury and shame, as called out by Frank last week, is on full display and the only thing that stayed his hand from committing the ultimate sin was saving Angela's life. This time. What will he do when there isn't an innocent girl's life on the line? Will he hold back? Especially considering he allowed Muse to escape in order to save Angela. Or will he continue to become more and more like Kingpin and let his rage take full control? What would Sister Maggie think (who got a nameless callback in the previous episode!)? Or Father Lantom? Or Foggy? Is the obvious answer Karen returning to become Matt's saving grace or will this show go in a different direction? Especially if Xerxes82's theory about Vanessa is correct and Matt discovers the truth?
Yup, I thought the same thing. I loved the subtlety of that moment and how his later scene with Kingpin didn't even try to refer to that moment. Hopefully this isn't the extent of Jack's appearance this season.
The thing that stood out to me was how they were both credited but Wilson Bethel wasn't. I guess because Bethel was barely glimpsed and didn't say anything in the flashback?
These episodes were both great. One thing that I love that they've been doing this season, which I think actually goes back the original series, is the parallels between Matt and Fisk.
After all the build up, it was great to finally get Matt back in the suit.
The stuff with Muse is seriously disturbing.
As a big fan of both Hawkeye and Ms. Marvel I got a big kick out of Swordsman and Yusuf Khan showing up in the episodes.
After all the build up, it was great to finally get Matt back in the suit.
The stuff with Muse is seriously disturbing.
As a big fan of both Hawkeye and Ms. Marvel I got a big kick out of Swordsman and Yusuf Khan showing up in the episodes.
Sometimes, big, life changing choices are loud and dramatic. But sometimes they're quiet, subtle and almost unnoticed as we go about our day. Like, "It was very disrespectful." And sometimes, they are different still. The simple act of letting go and being oneself, in spite of oneself. Or, as you might say, "Fuck it."
And, just like that, they're back.
Wilson Fisk is tired of being the most powerful powerless man in NYC. It's time to get shit done, and the crime boss is gonna crime boss. The thing about being a gang leader though, is you need a gang. Fisk's new one has badges and is backed up by the power of the city government. Which, I suspect, means he wins. The city is going to put some respect on his name, and it may very well bleed to do so.
Speaking of bleeding, Muse is indeed the final straw to put Matt back in the suit. But only indirectly. It is not the dispensing of blind justice that has brought the Devil back to NYC's mean streets, it's protecting one of it's most vulnerable citizens. Angela shows the spirit of the White Tiger (and some truly blinding stupidity, but genre characters will do that) and very nearly gets herself turned into Muse's next work. Matt doesn't have all his issues resolved, he's still a corked up bottle of rage and pain, but he makes the right choices here and it's a start. Absolution doesn't come in a day, Repentance is the work of lifetimes.
They have, I suspect quite without thinking about it, made Matt into a Jedi. When he acts in defense of others he's at his best. When he gives in to his desire for retribution he threatens to succumb to the darkness within and become the very destroyer he seeks to combat.
And, just like that, they're back.
Wilson Fisk is tired of being the most powerful powerless man in NYC. It's time to get shit done, and the crime boss is gonna crime boss. The thing about being a gang leader though, is you need a gang. Fisk's new one has badges and is backed up by the power of the city government. Which, I suspect, means he wins. The city is going to put some respect on his name, and it may very well bleed to do so.
Speaking of bleeding, Muse is indeed the final straw to put Matt back in the suit. But only indirectly. It is not the dispensing of blind justice that has brought the Devil back to NYC's mean streets, it's protecting one of it's most vulnerable citizens. Angela shows the spirit of the White Tiger (and some truly blinding stupidity, but genre characters will do that) and very nearly gets herself turned into Muse's next work. Matt doesn't have all his issues resolved, he's still a corked up bottle of rage and pain, but he makes the right choices here and it's a start. Absolution doesn't come in a day, Repentance is the work of lifetimes.
They have, I suspect quite without thinking about it, made Matt into a Jedi. When he acts in defense of others he's at his best. When he gives in to his desire for retribution he threatens to succumb to the darkness within and become the very destroyer he seeks to combat.
The juxtaposition between the two episodes here was quite stark.
Episode 5 was a classic bottle episode, having almost nothing to do with the seasonal arc. We don't see Fisk, or anyone within his orbit. We don't see Matt's girlfriend, his law partner, or the ex-cop who works with him. There were a few touches to continuity (the hostage negotiator was Cherry's former partner, as established in Episode 1), but it could have been at any point within the seasonal arc, and it would have worked just as well. There were also no references to lingering guilt over Foggy's death, fallout from the White Tiger case, etc. I suspect that this episode was essentially untouched from the former showrunners. It worked great as an episode of TV, but it felt ported in from an alternative universe, where Season 4 was an episodic, rather than serialized show. I understand why it wasn't the sole drop, as the lack of any forward development for the season at large would have irked some people.
In contrast, Episode 6 is all about arcs. Fisk, his wife, the fallout from White Tiger, Muse, Foggy's death, it's all here. The montage was a bit overdone at the beginning, but I understand this was meant as the turning point, where both Matt and Fisk fully embrace their former identities.
While they can be seen as shallow fanservice, I like we got to see Kamala's dad and Swordsman in each episode respectively. There are a lot of MCU-adjacent folks in the metro-NYC area, after all.
Episode 5 was a classic bottle episode, having almost nothing to do with the seasonal arc. We don't see Fisk, or anyone within his orbit. We don't see Matt's girlfriend, his law partner, or the ex-cop who works with him. There were a few touches to continuity (the hostage negotiator was Cherry's former partner, as established in Episode 1), but it could have been at any point within the seasonal arc, and it would have worked just as well. There were also no references to lingering guilt over Foggy's death, fallout from the White Tiger case, etc. I suspect that this episode was essentially untouched from the former showrunners. It worked great as an episode of TV, but it felt ported in from an alternative universe, where Season 4 was an episodic, rather than serialized show. I understand why it wasn't the sole drop, as the lack of any forward development for the season at large would have irked some people.
In contrast, Episode 6 is all about arcs. Fisk, his wife, the fallout from White Tiger, Muse, Foggy's death, it's all here. The montage was a bit overdone at the beginning, but I understand this was meant as the turning point, where both Matt and Fisk fully embrace their former identities.
While they can be seen as shallow fanservice, I like we got to see Kamala's dad and Swordsman in each episode respectively. There are a lot of MCU-adjacent folks in the metro-NYC area, after all.
I didn't realize two eps were airing and watched ep 6 first by accident. Well, if I was going to mess up the viewing order, this is where it should be done. Ep 5 could be completely skipped and you wouldn't miss a beat. I still enjoyed the episode even watching it after 6 though.
We're arguing the same thing here. That exactly my problem with it. And with cops wearing it. There "should" be a distinction between the two. Cops shouldn't be using Punisher as an inspiration for their law enforcement. Most people can make the distinction between comics and reality. And I will say again. There is a big difference between a fan wearing a t-shirt and trigger happy Cops with the full backing of the law behind them using it.
Saying one leads to the other is just being overly dramatic. I wear Batman t-shirts all the time and I never threw anyone off a roof. Same goes for most law abiding people. And I don't go to work wearing it.
If you think that was necessary, then you missed the point and the joy of that episode. If anything, I wish it was a little longer but that's mostly because I love bank heists so much.
2 excellent episodes. I love it. I was thinking Vincent D'Onofrio was putting on weight in these two episodes and wondered if it was weight gain before reshoots. But no, it's part of the Fisk story (or worked into it?). I love the back and forth between Daredevil and Fisk as they both re^emerge. Very much enjoying this whole show. Episode 5 was excellent because it was episodic. Really refreshing in this day and age.
It's not like one automatically leads to the other or else we'd be all murdering psychopaths because we played Mortal Kombat as kids or any of the million online shooters.
What it allows though is a glimpse into a certain mindset that is problematic. If you are a fan of a fictional vigilante killer and your job entails to be armed and sent into combat or work in a hot zone where violence is regular and you are trained to use those weapons i am a bit uneasy if your idol/fanship is about The Punisher.
I think D'Onofrio wears a fat suit for Fisk, so it had to have been just part of the story,
