Khan Noonien-Singh in The Savage Curtain?

[Warped9]

If we learned anything from Star Trek is if you change one thing you get a whole lot of other unexpected things. If Khan had showed up again in TOS or in TAS then there's no guarantee he would have been seen again in the films.

Although fans, and writers, would like to have seen certain characters again Roddenberry's take during TOS was the Enterprise was outbound on the frontier and thus highly unlikely to run into the same people again. So while "The Trouble With Tribbles" and "Day Of The Dove" were originally written with Kor in mind he did not appear because John Colicos was not available due to scheduling conflicts. If Kor had returned we wouldn't have gotten Koloth (not a big loss), but moreso we wouldn't have gotten Michael Ansara's excellent turn as Kang.

During TOS Harry Mudd was the one-off exception, and I could argue it wasn't that inspired a return story wise. In TAS some of the most meh episodes were those featuring a returning character.

- "Mudd's Passion" was pointless and sloppily written.
- "More Tribbles, More Troubles" was just extending a joke that had already been done.
- One downer about "Time Trap" was that Kor not only didn't look like Kor and didn't sound like Kor, but he didn't act like Kor either. He was written just as another run-of-the-mill baddie.

Seeing Khan again in "The Savage Curtain" would have complicated and likely diluted what we saw earlier in "Space Seed."

 

[Kor]

I've always been struck by the similarities between Khan and Green's uniforms. Headcanoned that he's a supporter of the Augments or maybe an Augment himself [...]

I thought there could be some connection as well. TOS's chronology placed the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s, and then not too many years later, Colonel Green's "genocidal war early in the 21st century on Earth." Maybe there was a power vacuum after the defeat of the "supermen" and exile of Khan and his crew, and Green was influenced by their ideology or something.

Kor

 

[Maurice]

If we learned anything from Star Trek is if you change one thing you get a whole lot of other unexpected things. If Khan had showed up again in TOS or in TAS then there's no guarantee he would have been seen again in the films.

Although fans, and writers, would like to have seen certain characters again Roddenberry's take during TOS was the Enterprise was outbound on the frontier and thus highly unlikely to run into the same people again. So while "The Trouble With Tribbles" and "Day Of The Dove" were originally written with Kor in mind he did not appear because John Colicos was not available due to scheduling conflicts.

Justman balked at the idea of bringing Kor back. He thought it too unreasonable a coincidence. We think that’s the real reason characters like Kor didn’t return, not actor availability.

 

[FredH]

Then we would've had a way less satisfying follow-up to "Space Seed" than the one we got in 1982.

I’ve always had slightly mixed feelings about TWOK as a “Space Seed” sequel. On the one had, yes, it’s a great movie. But on the other, it would have been nice to see “seed” planted on Ceti Alpha V flower, so to speak — what kind of world might they have built, now that conquering people was off the table (had the next planet over not blown up for story reasons)?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've often wondered what the reaction and reception of "Space Seed" was originally, back in the 60s and 70s before TWOK. My memory is it was a "middle episodes" and not one of the greats.

 

[Warped9]

I’ve always thought “Space Seed” as one of the really good ones. Still do.

 

[cooleddie74]

As a little kid it was always one of my favorite episodes, even before I saw TWOK.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I've often wondered what the reaction and reception of "Space Seed" was originally, back in the 60s and 70s before TWOK. My memory is it was a "middle episodes" and not one of the greats.

Nobody knew it was important. In 1970, it must have seemed like a given episode of Star Trek would be no more enduring than an episode of Gilligan's Island, or any of those '60s series we still love so much. They were all expected to fade away, but half a century on, their DVD box sets are at Walmart.

 

[Phaser Two]

Justman balked at the idea of bringing Kor back. He thought it too unreasonable a coincidence. We think that’s the real reason characters like Kor didn’t return, not actor availability.

Intriguing. It sounds as though Justman would have disliked or perhaps did really dislike DS9, which - despite the grandest scope of any ST series to date (with Discovery perhaps on "par") - had a ridiculous case of small-universe syndrome. The Dominion was run by one "person" (somewhat excused by the whole hive mind idea) and the most important thing to her was . . . DS9's security chief. Sisko and one admiral made all decisions for the Federation's entire military. Cardassia was basically three dudes. When Dukat and Winn had their (preposterous) final plotline, Bajor appeared to have a population of about five. The same two Klingons showed up over and over again and made all the decisions for their race. Oddly, the only element portrayed otherwise, with some sense of mystery, was the Romulans.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

I've often wondered what the reaction and reception of "Space Seed" was originally, back in the 60s and 70s before TWOK. My memory is it was a "middle episodes" and not one of the greats.

I'd rate it above "middling" as far as the series is taken as a whole, but it was just one of many top tier episodes in my mind. I do like that Meyer and Harve Bennett decided that was the one to base a sequel movie upon though, that worked out well. But probably without the film as backup "Space Seed" most likely wouldn't be as revered as it is today.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

At least TOS had the option to bring back an episode villain in a movie - the show had enough other episodes that Khan wasn't stale and overdone by that point.

 

[Phaser Two]

I'd rate it above "middling" as far as the series is taken as a whole, but it was just one of many top tier episodes in my mind. I do like that Meyer and Harve Bennett decided that was the one to base a sequel movie upon though, that worked out well. But probably without the film as backup "Space Seed" most likely wouldn't be as revered as it is today.

It's a very good episode for the dialogue, the acting, one of the series' best guest stars, the world-building, the action, and some of the well-executed military aspects. But Kirk should likely have been drummed out of his command for nearly losing the Enterprise so stupidly, which makes for a discomfiting rewatch at times. You're supposed to excuse that by thinking that Khan just had a superior intellect, but Kirk handing over the schematics of the ship - a creative decision bolstered by Spock later monitoring Khan's studies and failing to act to stop them - was beyond ridiculous. Also, even if Starfleet excused that, the idea that Kirk would have been allowed single-handedly to decide the fates of about 80 genetically enhanced war criminals who nearly stole a ship capable of enslaving entire populations just doesn't track. Moreover, apparently very few people knew what he did!!!

There are several eps of TOS that are great fun, but to enjoy them, you have to suspend your disbelief far enough to cover the Grand Canyon. This is probably the archetype.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

You think part of the satisfaction stems from the fact that we hadn't seen Khan, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, since "Space Seed"?

Yes, I do. If Khan had been in a substandard sequel on TOS or TAS, it definitely would've reduced his prestige as a villain and we very likely would never have gotten TWOK.

Although fans, and writers, would like to have seen certain characters again Roddenberry's take during TOS was the Enterprise was outbound on the frontier and thus highly unlikely to run into the same people again. So while "The Trouble With Tribbles" and "Day Of The Dove" were originally written with Kor in mind he did not appear because John Colicos was not available due to scheduling conflicts. If Kor had returned we wouldn't have gotten Koloth (not a big loss), but moreso we wouldn't have gotten Michael Ansara's excellent turn as Kang.

A similar thing happened on the 1966 Batman series when Frank Gorshin declined to return as the Riddler for the second season due to salary disputes. They ended up recasting the character with The Addams Family's John Astin for one two-parter, and they rewrote another Riddler episode to feature "The Puzzler" and cast Maurice Evans in the part.

I've often wondered what the reaction and reception of "Space Seed" was originally, back in the 60s and 70s before TWOK. My memory is it was a "middle episodes" and not one of the greats.

I can't answer that, as I don't have any memory of watching "Space Seed" in syndication as a kid in the '70s, even though I likely did. I didn't see TWOK until around 1985, and so I basically saw Khan return before I ever saw his introduction. (I also saw Spock resurrected in TSFS before I ever saw him killed off in TWOK.)

Also, even if Starfleet excused that, the idea that Kirk would have been allowed single-handedly to decide the fates of about 80 genetically enhanced war criminals who nearly stole a ship capable of enslaving entire populations just doesn't track.

Why not? The concept of TOS was that the USS Enterprise was fairly isolated when it wasn't near a Starbase, so Kirk was the rule of law. He was totally in his authority to do what he did at the end of "Space Seed." That's why it was an official hearing with the crew in dress uniforms and Uhura recorded the entire proceeding.

Moreover, apparently very few people knew what he did!!!

Yeah, but that wasn't because Kirk was keeping it a secret. I think the fact of Khan's people going to Ceti Alpha V just got lost in Starfleet bureaucracy and by the time the Reliant was scouting for possible planets for the Genesis Project 15 years later, Starfleet's left hand didn't know what its right hand was doing.

 

[Phaser Two]

Why not? The concept of TOS was that the USS Enterprise was fairly isolated when it wasn't near a Starbase, so Kirk was the rule of law. He was totally in his authority to do what he did at the end of "Space Seed." That's why it was an official hearing with the crew in dress uniforms and Uhura recorded the entire proceeding.

Yeah, but that wasn't because Kirk was keeping it a secret. I think the fact of Khan's people going to Ceti Alpha V just got lost in Starfleet bureaucracy and by the time the Reliant was scouting for possible planets for the Genesis Project 15 years later, Starfleet's left hand didn't know what its right hand was doing.

Yeah, the idea of an O-6 having the unilateral authority to exile a gang of super-strong, brilliant 1990s warlords who ruled "a quarter" of the Earth just doesn't hold up. In "Amok Time," Kirk couldn't even get authorization to miss some silly UFP ceremony when Spock was dying.

Similarly, it's not credible to me that the fate of Khan and his folks just got lost in paperwork - so much so that a Starfleet cruiser assigned to a top-secret classified program (that incidentally could be turned into a superweapon) stumbled into the same system 15 years later and no one made the connection.

Don't get me wrong - I love "Space Seed" and I absolutely adore Wrath of Khan, my second-favorite movie of all time. But those plot issues are pretty serious.

 

[Warped9]

A lot has been made of Kirk’s decision and being negligent not checking up on them and such. But it’s more likely Kirk dutifully informed Starfleet (can’t really get 430 people to keep something like that a secret anyway) and Starfleet says, “Okay then. Leave it with us, not your problem anymore.” This could well have been discussed even higher up wherein they decide it’s better for everyone Khan and company stay where they are. They’re effectively imprisoned even if not behind actual walls, essentially a penal colony without guards present. And they likely weighed the chance of rehabilitating Khan’s group as low probability of success. In they end they figure Kirk had the right idea all along.

It’s Khan who accuses Kirk of not checking up on them when he had no obligation to do so, Khan initially wouldn’t have wanted to be nursemaided anyway and Starfleet probably told Kirk it wasn’t his problem anymore.

In the TOS’s 1990s Earth no one likely had any knowledge of intelligent life beyond the Sol system. So Khan’s group were taking a long shot of reaching some world they could settle on and dominate. That was their idea. Kirk gave them what they wanted even if it didn’t turn out as expected. Oops, sucks, but life happens. If they had reached a planet on their own as originally planned it could have played out much the same way and they would have had no expectation of supervision or rescue.

So no boo-hoo from me over what happened to Khan’s group.

 

[somebuddyX]

I would have been fine with Khan showing up again.And Zefram Cochrane too. Man, what a hoot that would be.

 

[Warped9]

I’m glad we didn’t get recurring villains. They avoided the ever shrinking universe that later Treks would indulge in where even character’s parents and family were popping up every so often.

Budgetary constraint dictated the Enterprise stayed out there away from Earth and familiar territory. It emphasized that idea of the frontier and being on their own. But TNG onward really kneecapped that idea wherein the 1701D came back to Earth whenever they felt like it and family members kept showing up aboard ship.

In TOS/TAS we saw Spock’s parents twice, but in totally different contexts. Hell, totally different timelines. It wasn’t Sarek and Amanda dropping in whenever they felt like it.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yeah, the idea of an O-6 having the unilateral authority to exile a gang of super-strong, brilliant 1990s warlords who ruled "a quarter" of the Earth just doesn't hold up. In "Amok Time," Kirk couldn't even get authorization to miss some silly UFP ceremony when Spock was dying.

There may be different rules regarding how much autonomy you have depending on where you happen to be. If the Enterprise had been in deep space, and Spock had to travel to another deep space, non-Federation planet, not Vulcan, Kirk might well have been able to ignore the request without penalty (too far out to get there in time, not in your jurisdiction)

A lot has been made of Kirk’s decision and being negligent not checking up on them and such. But it’s more likely Kirk dutifully informed Starfleet (can’t really get 430 people to keep something like that a secret anyway) and Starfleet says, “Okay then. Leave it with us, not your problem anymore.” This could well have been discussed even higher up wherein they decide it’s better for everyone Khan and company stay where they are. They’re effectively imprisoned even if not behind actual walls, essentially a penal colony without guards present. And they likely weighed the chance of rehabilitating Khan’s group as low probability of success. In they end they figure Kirk had the right idea all along.

Kirk can't micromanage all his decisions. In other episodes, he promises or records a log in which he states his intention to send specialists to a planet to aid the aliens of the week with their problems. So him not making a personal return visit is not surprising - even more so, when he knows how dangerous Khan can be. Risk may be their business, but that doesn't mean every risk is taken.

I’m glad we didn’t get recurring villains. They avoided the ever shrinking universe that later Treks would indulge in where even character’s parents and family were popping up every so often.

Budgetary constraint dictated the Enterprise stayed out there away from Earth and familiar territory. It emphasized that idea of the frontier and being on their own. But TNG onward really kneecapped that idea wherein the 1701D came back to Earth whenever they felt like it and family members kept showing up aboard ship.

In TOS/TAS we saw Spock’s parents twice, but in totally different contexts. Hell, totally different timelines. It wasn’t Sarek and Amanda dropping in whenever they felt like it.

A century after TOS, there were so many more people in space for various reasons, and so many people onboard Enterprise-D that the chances of somebody running into someone they knew who was also travelling in space would be small, but greater than before, particularly if most if not all the people they associate with are frequent space travellers (fellow Starfleet members, diplomats, freighter crew, etc)

Now if you kept running into homebodies...

 

[JonnyQuest037]

A lot has been made of Kirk’s decision and being negligent not checking up on them and such. But it’s more likely Kirk dutifully informed Starfleet (can’t really get 430 people to keep something like that a secret anyway) and Starfleet says, “Okay then. Leave it with us, not your problem anymore.”

It’s Khan who accuses Kirk of not checking up on them when he had no obligation to do so, Khan initially wouldn’t have wanted to be nursemaided anyway and Starfleet probably told Kirk it wasn’t his problem anymore.

Yeah, I can't imagine that it'd be a part of Kirk's duties to regularly check up on Khan. When Khan says, "Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress" in TWOK, that's his paranoia and 15 years of obsession with James T. Kirk talking, not a sincere accounting of what Kirk was supported to do.

I think it was Nick Meyer who said that Khan stayed awake at night thinking about Kirk. Kirk didn't stay up at night obsessing over Khan.

I would have been fine with Khan showing up again.And Zefram Cochrane too. Man, what a hoot that would be.

Interestingly, Len Wein wrote an issue of Gold Key's Star Trek comic, #10, that was originally intended to feature the return of Khan. More details (and a decent number of scans from the issue) can be found here. And Zephram Cochrane appeared in issue #49 (not by Wein).

 

[Phaser Two]

A lot has been made of Kirk’s decision and being negligent not checking up on them and such. But it’s more likely Kirk dutifully informed Starfleet (can’t really get 430 people to keep something like that a secret anyway) and Starfleet says, “Okay then. Leave it with us, not your problem anymore.” This could well have been discussed even higher up wherein they decide it’s better for everyone Khan and company stay where they are. They’re effectively imprisoned even if not behind actual walls, essentially a penal colony without guards present. And they likely weighed the chance of rehabilitating Khan’s group as low probability of success. In they end they figure Kirk had the right idea all along.

It’s Khan who accuses Kirk of not checking up on them when he had no obligation to do so, Khan initially wouldn’t have wanted to be nursemaided anyway and Starfleet probably told Kirk it wasn’t his problem anymore.

In the TOS’s 1990s Earth no one likely had any knowledge of intelligent life beyond the Sol system. So Khan’s group were taking a long shot of reaching some world they could settle on and dominate. That was their idea. Kirk gave them what they wanted even if it didn’t turn out as expected. Oops, sucks, but life happens. If they had reached a planet on their own as originally planned it could have played out much the same way and they would have had no expectation of supervision or rescue.

So no boo-hoo from me over what happened to Khan’s group.

Heh. Not sure what "boo-hoo" means, but the goalposts seem to be moving. The massive plot issue is that Starfleet just left Khan and Co. alone and unguarded for 15 years, and buried knowledge of their location so deep that they later sent one of their own vessels, engaged in a project that could build a superweapon, right into the same system. Dumb idea in-universe and out.

As for Kirk, he was cleared for Genesis, something that (e.g.) Spock knew nothing about. He absolutely had the juice to follow up on Khan and declare the entire system off-limits.