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What the heck is the point of having two timelines?

(yes the prose stuff agreed though, he didn't care for it)
As an aggregate whole, maybe. There's a lot of stuff in there that's hard to defend, and with writers going in all kinds of different directions it's obvious that not all of it was going to match up with whatever he'd envisioned. But ( for example ) he supposedly gave one of the comics to staffers as a Christmas gift; he wrote the in-universe introduction of one of the books and allegedly provided direct input on another; ROTS includes callbacks to several EU projects; and it's clear to me that he had at least read certain books that came out around the time the prequels were being written because you can sometimes see things culled or modified from those books appearing in the film dialogue.
 
he wrote the in-universe introduction of one of the books and allegedly provided direct input on another
It wasn't so much that the decanonization was done but HOW it was done. They went out of their way to bulldoze old material. For example in D&D, everything but the sourcebooks are non-canon per WOTC, but you couldn't tell because even the recent D&D movie basically fit in just fine with all the pre-existing D&D novels.

I understand they probably couldn't make the new SW movies fit similarly BUT the other material--that introduction that George wrote was to Shatterpoint, and what was the first thing the new canon did? Made sure Shatterpoint couldn't fit in the new universe with a mention of a non-comatose Depa Billaba in the first new SW canon book 'A New Dawn'. And the deep, story-based, film-based reasons for this? A few mentions of Depa in the cartoon Rebels that would've had no major difference if the name Depa had been dubbed over as Eeth Koth instead.
 
It only exists so JJ Abrahams could have his different look and take on the franchise.

No, as I mentioned before, that impetus came from Paramount. The perception at the time was that Trek suffered from franchise fatigue, that the old fanbase had lost interest, as evidenced by the underperformance of Star Trek Nemesis and Enterprise. The studio felt that the franchise needed to be relaunched and reworked into something more fresh, exciting, and appealing to mass audiences. J.J. Abrams was simply the person they chose to do that for them, because they liked what he'd done with their Mission: Impossible franchise. Any other filmmaker they'd given the job to would have done the same, because that was how the job was defined going in.


At least the original Trek universe survived JJ. When JJ went over to that other Star franchise, the original Star Wars universe as fans knew it did not survive (even the Ewok movies and the original 2003 Clone Wars were purged from the canon).

First off, that's inaccurate, because only the non-canonical supplementary material was overwritten, not the core movies themselves. (And yes, the Expanded Universe was non-canonical, despite claims otherwise. Even before the EU was ended, there were multiple instances where its conjectures were contradicted by new canon, e.g. when Karen Traviss's Mandalorian books were ignored by The Clone Wars.)

Second, as above, that was the studio's decision, and Abrams was simply the person chosen to carry it out. As I mentioned before, Abrams had far less creative control on Star Wars than he did on ST. On ST, he was free to create a whole new interpretation from scratch; on SW, he was working with Lawrence Kasdan and Kathleen Kennedy to create something that fit into the existing screen canon, with Kennedy as the ultimate decision-maker.

The one real commonality is that both decisions were motivated by the filmmakers' choice to cover ground that had been covered before. Bad Robot decided to revisit the original TOS crew a decade before TOS, so it made sense to do an alternate version of them so the films' storytelling wouldn't be straitjacketed by TOS continuity. Lucasfilm decided to do a sequel to the original SW trilogy, so it made sense to disregard the novels' and comics' take on that same time period and subject matter so the films' storytelling wouldn't be straitjacketed by what the EU had done. It's simply about having creative freedom.



I understand they probably couldn't make the new SW movies fit similarly BUT the other material--that introduction that George wrote was to Shatterpoint, and what was the first thing the new canon did? Made sure Shatterpoint couldn't fit in the new universe with a mention of a non-comatose Depa Billaba in the first new SW canon book 'A New Dawn'. And the deep, story-based, film-based reasons for this? A few mentions of Depa in the cartoon Rebels that would've had no major difference if the name Depa had been dubbed over as Eeth Koth instead.

I'm sorry, but anyone who actually believed the old EU was ever respected by screen canon was simply not paying attention. It was repeatedly contradicted by the prequels and animated series, and the publishers just adapted to the changes and pretended it all still fit. But Lucas was on record as saying that he did not consider the EU canonical or binding in any way. It was never more than a marketing tactic on the publishers' part to claim the EU comics and books were canonical, and frankly I always considered it a dishonest tactic, because it was obvious that they were just as prone to contradiction as the non-canonical tie-ins to Star Trek or most anything else.
 
You're right I guess that really came from higher than JJ (Iger and Kennedy) BUT I'd debate that Lucas considered even filmed works like the Ewok movies that he contributed to non-canon (yes the prose stuff agreed though, he didn't care for it)

He didn't do a good job either for old fans like me or the mainstream audience he claimed to be marketing for who knew nothing about Trek (I've already mentioned my story about taking a woman from Tianjin, China to see the movie and she hated it and got confused why Leonard Nimoy was supposed to be important so I won't detail it again).

Quite frankly this is where CGI/AI stuff would actually work. My Tianjin acquaintance would've been less confused if we had an aged up Quinto or a deaged Nimoy, but not 2 actors playing 1 character.
That's ridiculous. We've have two actors of different ages play the same character almost since the dawn of entertainment. The film makes clear they are the "same" character. It also makes clear that the Spocks are from different realities and times.
 
Yet I, and my dad (old fans) enjoyed watching it with my wife and mom (anti sci-fi fans and not familiar with Trek).

Seems ok to me.
I think your wife and mom at least knew what Star Trek was (you can correct me if I'm wrong), but JJ advertised the movie for people who knew NOTHING about Star Trek. Nothing, zero, nada, nil, etc. People who don't even know who Leonard Nimoy is. My story fits with who JJ claimed he was aiming the movie for, while yours doesn't from what I can tell.
 
I think your wife and mom at least knew what Star Trek was (you can correct me if I'm wrong), but JJ advertised the movie for people who knew NOTHING about Star Trek. Nothing, zero, nada, nil, etc. People who don't even know who Leonard Nimoy is. My story fits with who JJ claimed he was aiming the movie for, while yours doesn't from what I can tell.
My mom barely knew and my wife knew nothing. Both actively detested science fiction films.
 
I'll just leave this here

The film is the highest-grossing in the United States and Canada from the entire Star Trek film franchise, eclipsing The Voyage Home and Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Its opening weekend numbers alone outgross the entire individual runs of The Undiscovered Country, The Final Frontier, Insurrection and Nemesis.[160] Star Trek ended its United States theatrical run on October 1, 2009, with a box office total of $257,730,019, which places it as the seventh highest-grossing film for 2009 behind The Hangover.[3] The film grossed $127,764,536 in international markets,[161] for a total worldwide gross of $385,494,555.[162] While foreign grosses represent only 31% of the total box office receipts, executives of Paramount were happy with the international sales, as Star Trek historically was a movie franchise that never has been a big draw overseas.[163]
 
My mom barely knew and my wife knew nothing. Both actively detested science fiction films.
Well, I guess you win then. Your story references 2 people while mine only references 1, so that alone means I guess JJ *might* have been succesful with his mainstream claim thing, my own experience aside.

That being said, I maintain that the movie was not very good. Cadet to Captain aside, Kirk was just not very likeable and I'd say Paul Wesley is doing a much better job at likeable young Kirk. Yes I get that Kirk's dad was killed and the point was he became a jerk as a result, but that's also kind of insulting to tons of people who have a dead parent who don't end up jerks...
 
Yes I get that Kirk's dad was killed and the point was he became a jerk as a result, but that's also kind of insulting to tons of people who have a dead parent who don't end up jerks...
Oversimplifying the point of the story and missed the point entirely. It wasn't just his dad who was missing, but his mom in some ways and his stepdad who was a bit of an ass. No one seemed very invested in young Kirk.
That's ridiculous. We've have two actors of different ages play the same character almost since the dawn of entertainment. The film makes clear they are the "same" character. It also makes clear that the Spocks are from different realities and times.
Indeed. It shortchanges the audience and their intelligence.
 
Yes I get that Kirk's dad was killed and the point was he became a jerk as a result, but that's also kind of insulting to tons of people who have a dead parent who don't end up jerks...
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Oversimplifying the point of the story and missed the point entirely. It wasn't just his dad who was missing, but his mom in some ways and his stepdad who was a bit of an ass. No one seemed very invested in young Kirk.
Indeed. It shortchanges the audience and their intelligence.
I'd argue that everything you say proves my point even further as nothing about Winona that we see in her screentime indicates she'd be the type of person who'd leave Jim with an abusive uncle (her brother)/boyfriend/new husband (I don't believe the film ever clarifies if they ever settled on who this guy was). If anything it shows how poorly the characters were thought out. JJ repeats this mistake in Rise of Skywalker by showing Rey's otherwise decent parents leaving her with Unkar Plutt (which has had SW fans scratching their heads and I believe even the Shadow of the Sith novel had to write itself into twists to explain that one)
 
I'd argue that everything you say proves my point even further as nothing about Winona that we see in her screentime indicates she'd be the type of person who'd leave Jim with an abusive uncle (her brother)/boyfriend/new husband (I don't believe the film ever clarifies if they ever settled on who this guy was). If anything it shows how poorly the characters were thought out. JJ repeats this mistake in Rise of Skywalker by showing Rey's otherwise decent parents leaving her with Unkar Plutt (which has had SW fans scratching their heads and I believe even the Shadow of the Sith novel had to write itself into twists to explain that one)
I completely disagree. There are clues there, both in stepdad/uncle's dialog, and how Kirk conducted himself. He also has a hot headed streak of pride in claiming his name, then becomes irritable when Pike says he's "his father's son." Kirk clearly has issues with both male figures in his life, authority in general, and his dad's status as a hero.

As for Star Wars, that's not the topic of this thread.
 
I'd argue that everything you say proves my point even further as nothing about Winona that we see in her screentime indicates she'd be the type of person who'd leave Jim with an abusive uncle (her brother)/boyfriend/new husband (I don't believe the film ever clarifies if they ever settled on who this guy was). If anything it shows how poorly the characters were thought out. JJ repeats this mistake in Rise of Skywalker by showing Rey's otherwise decent parents leaving her with Unkar Plutt (which has had SW fans scratching their heads and I believe even the Shadow of the Sith novel had to write itself into twists to explain that one)
Does the film even indicate this relative was actually abusive? Jim may just be a handful.
 
Does the film even indicate this relative was actually abusive? Jim may just be a handful.
He was threatening (transcript follows)
(Young Jim Kirk is driving a corvette as his Nokia phone chirps)
STEPDAD: Hey, are you out of your mind? That car's an antique. You think you can get away with this just 'cause your mother's off-planet? You get your ass back home, now! You live in my house, buddy. You live in my house and that's my car. You get one scratch on that car and I'm going to whip your a...
(Kirk hits the media button on the phone, cutting off his stepdad's conversation, as the Beastie Boys play).
 
He was threatening (transcript follows)
(Young Jim Kirk is driving a corvette as his Nokia phone chirps)
STEPDAD: Hey, are you out of your mind? That car's an antique. You think you can get away with this just 'cause your mother's off-planet? You get your ass back home, now! You live in my house, buddy. You live in my house and that's my car. You get one scratch on that car and I'm going to whip your a...
(Kirk hits the media button on the phone, cutting off his stepdad's conversation, as the Beastie Boys play).
Okay. Not the best approach. Though I'd be pretty pissed off, too. Jim is definitely a handful.
 
Okay. Not the best approach. Though I'd be pretty pissed off, too. Jim is definitely a handful.
I'm not disagreeing but his response and Kirk's behavior paints a picture of a reactionary caregiver who isn't really interested in Kirk or his well-being. Kirk's later response is indicative of behavior that I would expect from someone not invested in by adults.
 
I think your wife and mom at least knew what Star Trek was (you can correct me if I'm wrong), but JJ advertised the movie for people who knew NOTHING about Star Trek. Nothing, zero, nada, nil, etc. People who don't even know who Leonard Nimoy is. My story fits with who JJ claimed he was aiming the movie for, while yours doesn't from what I can tell.

Again, what you're describing was not Abrams's exclusive decision; it was what Paramount wanted, what they hired Abrams to do for them. And yes, obviously the intent was to attract new audiences that weren't already into Trek. That's the goal with any reboot, since the old audience is always subject to attrition. Heck, it's a basic rule of storytelling to assume that every story is somebody's first. You want to welcome new people in, not make them feel excluded.

Also, "JJ advertised the movie" makes no sense. Directors don't handle their own promotion; they're too busy making the actual movies. The advertising is handled by advertising agencies, and it's usually the studio, not the director, that has the final say over the ad campaign.
 
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