TFF vs. TUC Enterprise Shots

[CoveTom]

So we all know that TFF is famous for having the worst visual effects of the film series. And I think that's pretty indisputable. The common refrain is that if they had gone with ILM, the effects would have been much better.

Well, recently, I was watching a clip from TUC and I was reminded just how much I hate the Enterprise effects from that film, particularly the warp drive effects. Honestly, I'm not sure that they are any better than Ferren's work on TFF. Every shot of the ship flying at warp just looks cheesy and low quality to me. And they certainly don't look anything like the warp effects that were done by ILM in their previous Trek outings. Even the shots of the Enterprise at impulse just seem "off" to me somehow. The lighting is not right or something. It's like from the time of TVH to the time of TUC, they forgot how to shoot that ship.

Does anyone else agree? What happened to make TUC's ship effects look so different?

 

[valkyrie013]

Well ST6 was ILM but it was on the cheap. and by that time the model was long in the tooth, and was notoriously hard to film.

 

[Dukhat]

Yep. There's a reason why we never saw the TMP Enterprise model again after TUC. As a matter of fact, the ILM VFX people in TVH were annoyed that they had to film the model again for the end of the movie (the original plan was that Kirk & Co. would get the Excelsior), but they didn't have to deal with it for TFF.

 

[rocketscientist]

Yep. There's a reason why we never saw the TMP Enterprise model again after TUC. As a matter of fact, the ILM VFX people in TVH were annoyed that they had to film the model again for the end of the movie (the original plan was that Kirk & Co. would get the Excelsior), but they didn't have to deal with it for TFF.

Y'know, I think the Excelsior model would've worked. I read that that was the intention.

Hey, do you know if the plan was to rename the ship the Enterprise. Also, why exactly did they decide to go with the Enterprise model again in ST IV?

 

[Doug Otte]

Well ST6 was ILM but it was on the cheap. and by that time the model was long in the tooth, and was notoriously hard to film.

I don't understand how the model (being around 12 years old at that time) couldn't be adequately filmed. Was it damaged? If so, how did that affect the shots? Please explain. Thanks.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I don't understand how the model (being around 12 years old at that time) couldn't be adequately filmed. Was it damaged? If so, how did that affect the shots? Please explain. Thanks.

It was larger than the models ILM usually worked with, and it didn't work well with their camera rigs.

 

[Dukhat]

Also, why exactly did they decide to go with the Enterprise model again in ST IV?

Because their plan to use the Excelsior was nixed, and they didn't have any other model they could use as the Enterprise-A other than the TMP Enterprise.

 

[Tiran O'Saurus]

They could have given our heroes an Oberth!

 

[Orac]

Wasn't the model repainted by ILM to make it less reflective and easier to film that's why it never looked as good again as it did in Star Trek The Motion Picture?

I read about it in this trekbbs thread. --> link

 

[CoveTom]

Well ST6 was ILM but it was on the cheap. and by that time the model was long in the tooth, and was notoriously hard to film.

It was notoriously difficult for ILM to film. I don't think that's the fault of the model. I think that's the fault of ILM just not being as good as Trumbull and his team. Sorry, I know ILM has always been hailed as the gold standard of visual effects, but their work pales in comparison to what Trumbull accomplished with TMP. The fact that they ruined the pearlescent paint job because they thought it was too difficult to light properly is a travesty.

That all being said, however, they still did much better work in II-IV than they did in VI. I suspect you hit the nail on the head with it having to do with TUC being made on the cheap.

 

[Tosk]

Budgets.

Trek 1 - $35m
Trek 2 - $11m
Trek 3 - $17m
Trek 4 - $25m
Trek 5 - $28m
Trek 6 - $30m

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I've seen higher figures for Star Trek V's budget, anywhere from 30 to 45 million.

 

[rocketscientist]

It was notoriously difficult for ILM to film. I don't think that's the fault of the model. I think that's the fault of ILM just not being as good as Trumbull and his team. Sorry, I know ILM has always been hailed as the gold standard of visual effects, but their work pales in comparison to what Trumbull accomplished with TMP. The fact that they ruined the pearlescent paint job because they thought it was too difficult to light properly is a travesty.

That all being said, however, they still did much better work in II-IV than they did in VI. I suspect you hit the nail on the head with it having to do with TUC being made on the cheap.

I think I read also that the electronics of the model were really difficult to sus out too.

In short, it had nothing to do with the design of the model. One guy who worked for ILM later saw it being filmed by Trumbull and loved it, saying it was beautiful. The problems ILM had were with the characteristics of the model, its innards, maybe the way it was anchored and, I guess the paint scheme too, which I read was darkened when ILM obtained it.

ILM designed and built the Excelsior model, so they were good with that one. I don't know whether the original script called for Kirk and company to get the Excelsior (maybe renamed the Enterprise) or if that was the hope of ILM so they could finally scuttle the Enterprise model.

I think it's pretty clear that there was some foreshadowing right there in TSFS that Kirk and company would later be on the Excelsior. Maybe the ILM guys thought that that was going to happen and were bummed that the STIV script surprised everyone with the a new Constitution class Enterprise.

 

[rocketscientist]

Budgets.

Trek 1 - $35m
Trek 2 - $11m
Trek 3 - $17m
Trek 4 - $25m
Trek 5 - $28m
Trek 6 - $30m

These aren't adjusted for inflation, are they?

I thought TUC had a lower budget than TFF.

 

[NCC-73515]

In the comics, they got the Excelsior, and when IV came out, they adjusted the story to still fit

 

[CoveTom]

Budgets.

Trek 1 - $35m
Trek 2 - $11m
Trek 3 - $17m
Trek 4 - $25m
Trek 5 - $28m
Trek 6 - $30m

You never know for sure, but Nick Meyer is on record saying that 5 and 6 had the exact same budget. Take into account a couple years of inflation, the ever-increasing salaries of the cast, and the fact that they were back to ILM instead of Ferren, and I think it's clear that they had less to work with on 6 than on 5.

 

[rocketscientist]

You never know for sure, but Nick Meyer is on record saying that 5 and 6 had the exact same budget. Take into account a couple years of inflation, the ever-increasing salaries of the cast, and the fact that they were back to ILM instead of Ferren, and I think it's clear that they had less to work with on 6 than on 5.

So it cost more and they got less, right?

I read that Meyer didn't have a big budget for TUC, and I assumed that meant it got cut back after the poorly received TFF.

I really didn't like how they just reused the TNG sets in TFF and TUC. The irony is, a lot of those sets for Ent-D were originally the movie Enterprise sets to begin with. They saved money by not making new sets for the Ent-A and just tried redressing the Ent-D sets but, especially in TFF it was so obvious. In TUC they did a better job disguising the corridors at least, but the use of the Ent-D's conference room stood out because there are no windows like that on the Ent-A model (same with the lounge in TFF with its forward windows which the Enterprise model didn't have). Also, there was barely any shot of Engineering because that set, originally the Enterprise's engineering set had been converted into the Ent-D set. All those sets had to still be used for the Ent-D in TNG so very little change could be implemented.

Oh, and using 10-forward for the Federation president's office in TUC was bad too.

They should've given Meyer at least a little bit more money for this stuff.

 

[CoveTom]

So it cost more and they got less, right?

I read that Meyer didn't have a big budget for TUC, and I assumed that meant it got cut back after the poorly received TFF.

I really didn't like how they just reused the TNG sets in TFF and TUC. The irony is, a lot of those sets for Ent-D were originally the movie Enterprise sets to begin with. They saved money by not making new sets for the Ent-A and just tried redressing the Ent-D sets but, especially in TFF it was so obvious. In TUC they did a better job disguising the corridors at least, but the use of the Ent-D's conference room stood out because there are no windows like that on the Ent-A model (same with the lounge in TFF with its forward windows which the Enterprise model didn't have). Also, there was barely any shot of Engineering because that set, originally the Enterprise's engineering set had been converted into the Ent-D set. All those sets had to still be used for the Ent-D in TNG so very little change could be implemented.

Oh, and using 10-forward for the Federation president's office in TUC was bad too.

They should've given Meyer at least a little bit more money for this stuff.

I agree that the re-use of the Enterprise-D sets was painfully obvious and really hurts the believability of the scenes. At least they were still using a unique bridge set. However, Meyer was insistent that the bridge set be changed from the way it looked in TFF. He wanted it to be darker, more militaristic, and he didn't want the panels to all be touch screens -- he wanted physical controls. He also, for reasons that escape me, wanted clocks mounted all over the bridge. And, of course, fire extinguishers. The bridge must have fire extinguishers.

Now, the bridge in TUC looks fine. However, the bridge in TFF was also fine and had already been built and paid for. Rather than spending all that money to redress the bridge, it would have served the production much better if they had just kept the TFF bridge and put some money into making the other sets look more unique. Heck, did we really need to have scenes set in the Enterprise's kitchen, of all things? Instead of building a kitchen set, how about a proper engineering set?

Similarly, I feel like on TFF they could have made much better use of their money as well. Instead of filming a fall off a mountain or a ridiculous turbolift shaft ascent, they could have actually spent the money to construct a proper ending.

 

[rocketscientist]

I agree that the re-use of the Enterprise-D sets was painfully obvious and really hurts the believability of the scenes. At least they were still using a unique bridge set. However, Meyer was insistent that the bridge set be changed from the way it looked in TFF. He wanted it to be darker, more militaristic, and he didn't want the panels to all be touch screens -- he wanted physical controls. He also, for reasons that escape me, wanted clocks mounted all over the bridge. And, of course, fire extinguishers. The bridge must have fire extinguishers.

Now, the bridge in TUC looks fine. However, the bridge in TFF was also fine and had already been built and paid for. Rather than spending all that money to redress the bridge, it would have served the production much better if they had just kept the TFF bridge and put some money into making the other sets look more unique. Heck, did we really need to have scenes set in the Enterprise's kitchen, of all things? Instead of building a kitchen set, how about a proper engineering set?

Similarly, I feel like on TFF they could have made much better use of their money as well. Instead of filming a fall off a mountain or a ridiculous turbolift shaft ascent, they could have actually spent the money to construct a proper ending.

Yeah, I read about how Meyer wanted a darker bridge with switches for TUC. He did the same thing when he did TWOK, darkening things, adding more light and features, signage etc. to the TMP bridge and rearranging the panels (I thought the new configuration was a lot better having Spock on Kirk's right and Uhura on his left).

With TWOK, you can see that they went even further, taking the TFF bridge elements, reconfiguring them again, redoing the colors, etc.

Yeah, you're right, they could've saved money by just reusing the TFF bridge, but I do think, in that instance, especially for the darker story that Meyer wanted to tell that the TUC worked better. It just looks more dramatic. I actually prefer it.

As far as the kitchen set, I dunno. I bet it didn't cost much.

And yeah, I really didn't like the reuse of the TNG engineering set, although they got away with it by not really having too many shots of it. I mean, Sickbay is pretty generic, but the engineering set was much more distinctive. And the transporter room too, which, of course, was originally the TMP/TWOK/TSFS transporter room to begin with.

The one that bugs me the most, besides engineering, is the dining room, with windows that don't exist on the Enterprise-A model and the president's office, which is obviously the 10 Forward set. They got away with the corridors and sickbay and Kirk and Spock's quarters and the like and even the transporter redress, but those 3 sets, Engineering, the dining room, and the president's office, all stood out.

I wish they'd given Meyer some more money for those 3 sets.

 

[JamesRye]

I really like the VFX in TUC and I love Meyers sensibilities for the movie. They actually made the corridors thinner, added conduit to reduce the overhead space - to be more like a submarine. And they used wonderfully contrasty lighting. They didn't use smoke or anything, and wanted the sets to have a worn, but clean feel to them.

In terms of the models, the Enterprise and the Klingon ship from TMP were both refurbished. I know that the Enterprise model needed new lights and a putty/sanding to deal with cracks where it was mis-handled during V. I think they did a great job and I love the final battle and the great shots of the cruiser bearing down on the Enterprise when the gravity goes out.

And that explosion shot of the BOP was so cool, they used it in Generations!

The BOP model was also refurbished where it got damaged during the making of IV. They added something to the model to show burns from going around the sun. But it wouldn't come off and again, the model was sanded and re-painted.