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Spoilers All Things STAR WARS - News, Speculation & Spoilers Thread

The OT took a one-dimensional goon, introduced the idea he could be redeemed, and resolved that idea just minutes of screen time later.
But you said it yourself: "praying to Vader's spirit". The idea he could be redeemed, even if somehow not already on the table at the outset, seems to some extent inherent in the disclosure that he feels the light side pulling at him. And yes, there are technically minutes of screen time left at that point, like over 300 of them.
 
I've never seen where why they fell to the Dark Side had any impact on whether or not a person could be redeemed. Hell, Anakin killed dozens or hundreds of his fellow Jedi, including kids, and he was so pretty much as far into the Dark Side as a person could get, and he was still redeemed, so it probably doesn't really matter as long as you can find something good left in them. And the fact that so many people questioned Kylo's loyalty to the Dark Side, even Snoke, would make it seem like he wasn't nearly as far gone as Vader was by the OT.
Indeed. Vader is the cornerstone of evil, a enforcer of the Empire at every turn, witness to or participating in, slaughter or enslavement of billions.

He can be redeemed? But not Ben? :wtf:
 
I've never seen where why they fell to the Dark Side had any impact on whether or not a person could be redeemed.

I never suggested that it did. I was explaining why a lack of narrative/character complexity was a problem in Kylo's case in the ST, but a similar lack of complexity wasn't a problem with Vader in the OT.
 
Indeed. Vader is the cornerstone of evil, a enforcer of the Empire at every turn, witness to or participating in, slaughter or enslavement of billions.

He can be redeemed? But not Ben? :wtf:
Like most of the ST, the problem isn't how it makes sense in theory, but in the execution. Ben fell to the dark side like 5 mins ago. Stomped around acting all emo for three movies, and then just did a massive 180 at the last moment because Harrison Ford had a cameo. This doesn't feel like a grand and tragic story of a fall from grace and redemption, it feels like a jumped up privileged, desperately angsty brat having a tantrum because his parents overshadowed him, and he couldn't handle the pressure of not measuring up. That it works at all is a testament to Adam Driver's talent as a performer, not the writing.

Vader's story at least has some implied history and weight behind it, even before we got to see the PT. Plus they spend the whole last movie humanising him.
 
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Vader's story at least has some implied history and weight behind it, even before we got to see the PT. Plus they spend the whole last movie humanising him.
I find Vader's redemption not very persuasive at times so I do not have the same issue with it. The ST does suffer from execution but Ben's fall is not one of my issues.
 
Vader’s fall to the dark side also wasn’t explained, not until the PT

All we knew from the OT is that he was a former Jedi student ‘seduced by the dark side of the force’

Which is just slightly less info than what we got for Kylo/Ben

And which part of this post don't you understand?
 
What I didn’t need was the origin for everything Han. The dice, the gun, his name. I get him winning the Falcon is an important part of his story, and Donald Glover was perfect as Lando, so seeing how he and Han met was nice. But why did the Falcon have “a peculiar dialect?” Did we really need to know what led to that?

This. The story tried to pack in too much 'origins' stuff. I particularly didn't like they way they introduced Chewie. I think a good Solo movie would have started with Solo winning the Falcon from Lando, then freeing Chewie from slavery, and finishing up with their first adventure together. Leave the Kessel run and Han's origin story for a sequel. What we got was fairly decent in and of itself, though. It's just that once again, there was already so much good-quality material done on these topics that was completely shitcanned and ignored for an inferior take on it.
 
Except, back in ESB Chewie and Lando already knew each other, and Chewie suspected Lando might be still holding a grudge over losing the Falcon.

I always figured Lando's grudge came from something later than losing the Falcon to Han. There could have been numerous adventures together before and after.
 
This. The story tried to pack in too much 'origins' stuff. I particularly didn't like they way they introduced Chewie. I think a good Solo movie would have started with Solo winning the Falcon from Lando, then freeing Chewie from slavery, and finishing up with their first adventure together. Leave the Kessel run and Han's origin story for a sequel. What we got was fairly decent in and of itself, though. It's just that once again, there was already so much good-quality material done on these topics that was completely shitcanned and ignored for an inferior take on it.
I've never had as much of a problem with the "origins stuff" that others seems to. For one thing if you go into the movie not knowing every last detail of Star Wars minutiae (i.e. the vast majority of the general movie going audience) then elements like the blaster, the dice, and even the Falcon just fits organically into the story.

Most people neither know nor care what a DL-44 is, much less be able to recognise it as Han's signature weapon, so when Beckett tosses him the blaster . . . he's just tossing him a blaster. Honestly I thought it was a rather brilliant touch to have it introduced in a rifle configuration, so even if you do know what it is, you don't necessarily clock it until Beckett starts to break it down.
The dice are a talisman that symbolises both the gutter Han was raised in, and quite literally his penchant for taking wild chances. That they're pulled from a bit of set dressing in the OT is just a neat detail. Contrary to what people claim, the movie isn't "explaining" the dice, just making use of them to tell part of Han's story. Yes, there's a difference!

As for Lando, Chewie, the Falcon and the Kessel Run . . . I don't care what anyone says; fans would have been *pissed* if any or all of those elements were omitted. I mean what's the point of doing a young Han movie, and not bothering to show the only two friends we know he has, and the only two things we've been told about his past? Now the Battle of Taanab on the other hand; that you save for the sequel!
It's not like the movie didn't also introduce a lot of new elements--an old flame right out of Film Noir, and a mentor figure that's equal parts Ethan Edwards and Alonzo Harris being the two major ones--and managed to incorporate at least the spirit of Lucas's idea for Han's back story.

From everything I've read about the behind the scenes, it's pretty clear that Lord & Miller were in WAY over their heads and just weren't ready for the responsibility and pressure of such a high budget production. Being open to improvisation is all well and good, but you have to keep that kind of thing within reason or it can quickly snowball and end up eating way more of the budget than it's worth (overtime costs alone can tank a production fast!) What cinches it for me was that they had a full year's head start working on pre-viz, which is exactly when you're supposed to do the improvising on this kind of production.
That Ron Howard was able to pull what is a very enjoyable adventure movie out of what was half-way to being "'McCabe & Mrs. Miller' with jokes"* is nothing short of miraculous, and a testament to his steady hand. I do not lament their version of the movie.

*Which by the way, was not what the Kasdans' script called for (even after doing a 4th draft with the Directors after they were hired) and very much not what was agreed on with Lucasfilm.

My only major criticism of the final movie is that they killed off Val waaay too quickly (for what it's worth, pretty sure that decision was made before the original directors were fired, so that's not on LF or Howard.) She should have at least made it to Kessel, if not the end credits!
 
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The dice are a talisman that symbolises both the gutter Han was raised in, and quite literally his penchant for taking wild chances. That they're pulled from a bit of set dressing in the OT is just a neat detail. Contrary to what people claim, the movie isn't "explaining" the dice, just making use of them to tell part of Han's story. Yes, there's a difference!
I freaking loved the dice. It was great callback to some many fans wouldn't notice unless reading Star Wars Insider or some other trivia publication.
 
Yeah, the dice practically were original to Solo/TLJ. They're in one shot of ANH without any special emphasis and immediately disappear for four whole movies. If anything, their presence in ANH is fanservice, albeit retroactively.
 
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