Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

[Nerys Myk]

Huh.

Spoiler: Season 2

Eldon Henson will be returning. I wonder if it will be flashbacks or if there was more to that opening scene than we were led to believe?

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 Will Bring Back Karen Page and Foggy Nelson, Marvel Confirms - IGN

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 is officially coming to Disney+, and when it arrives, it’ll bring back two fan-favorite faces from the series' original Netflix run.

www.ign.com

Spoiler

It's only a flesh wound

The name "Heather Glenn" sounded familiar, so I looked her up. Comic Book Matt's ladies do not have good luck. Black Widow was fortunate to get out when she did!

 

[JD]

Why would that be surprising? They never said the show was only building on the Netflix series.

Hell, there was a Spider-Man reference!

I just thought they might be afraid they'd confuse people who only watched the original Netflix shows and so they'd keep any references to other stuff as vague as possible.

That's an excellent insight (quote emphasis mine). I hope you're right and the show specifically circles back to Frank's comment to Matt. Considering the intensity of that cop fight and what is teased for the rest of the season, it seems like a likely scenario.

If that's the case, then I'll be a bit more forgiving of killing Foggy, but like you said, I feel like there could've been a better way for Matt to have that One Bad Day without killing Foggy or Karen and removing from the main storyline.


And from Kingpin's lips! I know Vincent D'Onofrio wants to appear in a Spider-Man film. This needs to happen!

I can't find it now to figure out the exact line, but I think you guys are right about what happens with Castle, one of the previews has him saying something about Matt coming to him for "permission". I'm assuming that was about him going down this darker path and getting more brutal.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Ok, so I've rewatched the first episode and I have some thoughts.

- I'm relatively sure that Vanessa sent Bullseye after Foggy/Karen/Matt. When we meet her again for the first time, the scene begins lingering on a painting on the wall. A painting of a holy man crying out in anguish as he holds a dying, bloody figure. This feels on the nose.

I don't know if that will ever come up over the course of the rest of the season. The main tension seems to be between Wilson and Vanessa, I'm not sure how much adding Matt to things is necessary. But if she was willing to go against Wilson's agreement with Matt, if she was willing to refuse to honor Wilson's word, her husband may not be okay with learning his wife made a liar of him.

As an aside, this, if it is the case, is comic accurate. Like the trial of the White Tiger, it comes from Ed Brubaker's run. Vanessa had Foggy killed while Matt was in prison, and it even featured Matt listening to his friend's heart stop in much the same way this did. Though, to be fair, it later turned out that Foggy was still alive and Vanessa had only faked it. Which feels like it's probably too much to hope for here.

Excellent theory and I think it makes a lot of sense. I agree that if this is true and Fisk learns that Vanessa was responsible, he will definitely not take this news lightly. The level of betrayal would crush him. If we thought we saw him at his angriest before but I don't think we have seen the rage like that knowledge would create...

- Bullseye executed his attack in the way to most terrorize Karen and to most hurt Matt. He deliberately wounds Foggy in such a way that it will take time to be fatal. As opposed to the cops who he straight up headshots and is done with it. Then he moves in to kill Karen face to face, despite having a clear shot from his sniper perch, just so he can drop the throwback "Hi Karen" line out. She is ultimately saved by Matt, obviously. But the whole attack sums up Dex's rage at this trio, to the point that he intentionally draws out their pain and misery for his own pleasure.

Also, kudos to Bethel for some great acting in that sequence. Bullseye's crazy eyes in the stairwell, the twisted glee when Matt hears Foggy die. He doesn't get much to work with, but he really works it well.

Great analysis and I agree the level of torture for Matt was spot on. After reading your insights about both Vanessa and Bullseye here, I'm curious to see how I'll feel about those scenes upon a rewatch. I might be more accepting of the situation now that I'm in the position of letting the reality of it to truly sink in. I'll definitely have to rewatch at least the first episode before next week's episode.

Overall, even though I've never read any of the comics, I am glad that you and others are happy to see how loyal these opening episodes are to the comics...but I also hope they don't follow so closely when it comes to what the comics did to Karen. I've read about those dark storylines and I find them absolutely vile. Hard pass.

As for reviving Foggy or somehow his death was faked, I find both of those scenarios highly unlikely considering the level of relative groundedness this series and its predecessor have tried to maintain...

Huh.

Spoiler: Season 2

Eldon Henson will be returning. I wonder if it will be flashbacks or if there was more to that opening scene than we were led to believe?

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 Will Bring Back Karen Page and Foggy Nelson, Marvel Confirms - IGN

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 is officially coming to Disney+, and when it arrives, it’ll bring back two fan-favorite faces from the series' original Netflix run.

www.ign.com

Okay, perhaps I'm wrong.

Spoiler

The way Winderbaum talks about Foggy and Karen as important characters to Matt in the present tense is a curious notion that suggests Eldon's return isn't just for flashbacks. Very curious indeed.

 

[Reverend]

Just got around to watching the new episodes and I'm honestly not sure how I feel. On the one hand I knew the show had been partly filmed before being significantly reworked during the strike, meaning all of the Foggy and Karen stuff is obviously reshoot. So I knew the second I saw them all together and happy, that something tragic was about to happen.

I understand the decision, but I don't like it. Especially since they just seem to swap out Karen & Foggy for two new characters that fill the same functional roles in his life. Nothing wrong with the new characters per-see, but we get exactly 20 seconds to get to know them before they're swapped in. What's worse is that they're both new characters who could have been returning characters from the old show; specifically Marci and Detective Mahoney. That at least would have given them a little more weight.
All that is to say that I have a slight concern that the "reworking" was just that set-up to connect with and immediately sever ties with the old show, and the rest of the show will be pretty much whatever they planned from the get-go.

Outside of that, it's been OK so far. Not nearly as compelling as the old show and the dialogue while serviceable feels pretty bland, which is fairly typical of a lot of Marvel productions these days. Thankfully that doesn't extend to the visual style, which feels like it's remaining true to the original, just with a few more CG double grapple-swinging shots. That does make it feel a little less grounded and more "comic-booky", but I'm not mad about it.

We know from the trailer that Frank's going to pop up, and they're clearly telegraphing that by showing a cops with the Punisher tattoo. Speaking of which, I was honestly a little surprised the show actually went there; for those that don't know this is a thing in the real world where actual cops (in the US at least) have been sighted with that logo about their person, which is exactly as sinister as it sounds considering said character is all about lethal force and retribution with zero accountability, and not so much with the serving and protecting.

That they put that logo on a dirty cop who's out to murder a witness, certainly says a lot about what the show-runners at least think of that. At least, I hope so. Right up until I saw that, I was starting to feel uncomfortably like they show was toeing the thin blue line just a little too much for my taste.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

What's worse is that they're both new characters who could have been returning characters from the old show; specifically Marci and Detective Mahoney. That at least would have given them a little more weight.

Yeaaaahhh...like I said, as much as I love Clark Johnson, his Cherry feels too much like a replacement and not much else. I would've loved to seen Marci and Mahoney step into those respective roles and I agree the shake-up would've had far more weight as a result. Instead, it just feels like a shake-up for emotion's sake that just returns to the status quo with less important characters. Which sucks for Johnson and Nikki James because they're doing the best they can with limited material.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Though it was a good start. Set things in motion for Fisk and Matt inevitable collision. Wonder if Fisk's anti-vigilante stance will pan out into the wider MCU or perhaps it's done and one by Season Two. Spider-Man and other NYC heroes would definitely feel the sting.

Vincent's take on Fisk is always fascinating. There is a rage you can see bubbling under his skin. The scene were he talks about the desk is very effective. The tension between him and Vanessa is palpable.

Intrigued by the aftermath of Matt taking out those two cops will be. They got their asses kicked by a blind lawyer. Heard a snap when one dude hit the floor! Matt on the run?

Heather seems to be the center of a pending hurricane. Dating Matt. Treating the Fisks. And creepy fanboy.

 

[JD]

I wonder if the original version would have had Foggy's death happen offscreen, or if him and Karen were just going to both be alive but just not around any more?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I wonder if the original version would have had Foggy's death happen offscreen, or if him and Karen were just going to both be alive but just not around any more?

IIRC. Foggy and Karen's "absences" were all handled off screen.

 

[JD]

I know we weren't going to see them at all, I was just wondering if Foggy would have been gone because he had already died, or if he would have been alive but just not seen. Was his death always going happen and the only change was we saw it now, or did they decide to kill him after they decided to bring him back?

 

[Turtletrekker]

I hope we get to see more of White Tiger in action than just that security footage.

 

[Reverend]

Though it was a good start. Set things in motion for Fisk and Matt inevitable collision. Wonder if Fisk's anti-vigilante stance will pan out into the wider MCU or perhaps it's done and one by Season Two. Spider-Man and other NYC heroes would definitely feel the sting.

I'd be surprised if Spider-Man gets anything more than a name-drop. Indeed, even that may not be possible depending on how the rights deal with Sony is laid out, and the best we'll get is the passing allusion we already got.
Kate Bishop on the other hand may be more feasible since she is NY based, and has a history with Fisk. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

 

[Saul]

I wonder if the original version would have had Foggy's death happen offscreen, or if him and Karen were just going to both be alive but just not around any more?

I saw some people mentioning recently that the opening of the first episode wasn't in the original plan and it was all stuff that happened offscreen. But I find it hard to believe since way back when it started filming some of the earliest leaked photos was of Foggy and Karen and the scoopers were saying they both get taken out.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I saw some people mentioning recently that the opening of the first episode wasn't in the original plan and it was all stuff that happened offscreen. But I find it hard to believe since way back when it started filming some of the earliest leaked photos was of Foggy and Karen and the scoopers were saying they both get taken out.

Those were post-strike reshoots. The entire first episode got rewritten.

 

[Tuskin38]

Sandrine Holt was also originally cast as Vanessa Fisk before the creative overhaul brought back Ayelet Zurer.

 

[JD]

I remember I read one thing that said that it was originally kind of ambiguous whether or not it was a continuation of the original or not, and that one of the changes they made was to make it's relationship to the Netflix series clearer.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I remember I read one thing that said that it was originally kind of ambiguous whether or not it was a continuation of the original or not, and that one of the changes they made was to make it's relationship to the Netflix series clearer.

It did seem to be in flux at the beginning. One the rights to the old Netflix shows were locked down it seemed to change things.

 

[Xerxes82]

With a new episode coming tomorrow, I wanted to follow up on an earlier post.

Ok, so Vanessa definitely sent Bullseye to open episode 1. I already brought up the painting that begins her intro scene, which may as well be a neon sign. But everything lines up.

The facts in evidence:
- Dumb Benny committed a dumb crime, and Foggy is his lawyer. Benny is worried that people are after him, so Foggy has stashed him at his apartment.
- Dumb Benny's crime was committed in Red Hook, as Foggy notes that Benny started receiving death threats after "that thing in Red Hook."
- Vanessa's intro scene is a mob meeting, which pays special attention to a mysterious aspect of their business in Red Hook. This whatever is particularly important, as Vanessa has made it exempt from the usual taxation the various families employ to grift each other. This scene takes place after the time jump, but we can safely assume that Red Hook has been valuable for a while.

Dumb Benny ripped off Vanessa's warehouse. He then promptly got caught by the police. However, somebody has since been threatening his life.

That said, Bullseye isn't sent to kill Benny. In fact, he leaves Benny ALIVE. Benny only gets involved in the action at all BECAUSE HE IS AT FOGGY'S APARTMENT. Which means Bullseye went to Foggy's home to kill Foggy, but found him away and Benny in his place. Cue the opening of the first episode as we see it.

So... why? Why did Vanessa point the biggest gun in her arsenal at Foggy, and why then? She wasn't worried about Benny. He's small time, and a noted idiot. He stole relatively little value and promptly got caught by the police. From the sounds of things the authorities recovered, and likely returned, a sizeable portion of his loot.

The answer is simpler. Benny got Foggy killed by hiring him as his lawyer. Vanessa is no fool. Nelson, Murdock and Page twice thwarted her husband, and both times they ultimately caught on to his grand scheme by first investigating smaller, seemingly unrelated crimes. If they were to look into the warehouse Benny stole from and discover who truly owned it, they would start digging. And Vanessa knows two things about the trio. First, that nobody is better or more thorough when it comes to digging. And secondly, that Daredevil (whom she knows to be Matt) can and will be looking in ways and places others can't. They cannot be allowed to even begin an investigation that will almost certainly lead them to her, eventually.

Vanessa tried to eliminate Nelson, Murdock and Page to avoid her husband's fate. She sent Bullseye because he was particularly motivated in regards to the trio, but also because she knows he has the skills to deal with Matt/DD.

Which adds a decidedly ominous subtext when Vanessa later tells Wilson that she made the business bulletproof. She thinks she's eliminated the single greatest threat they could possibly face, something her husband repeatedly failed at. No wonder she's so salty at being benched for his mayoral ambitions. She's convinced she's a better Kingpin than he ever was, and she has the feats to prove it.

 

[oktay]

Matt’s Inside Line: Scoop on Daredevil, NCIS, The Rookie, 9-1-1, The Hunting Party, FBI: Most Wanted, Ghosts, All American, Grey’s Anatomy and More!

CCO Matt Webb Mitovich answers YOUR questions about 'Daredevil: Born Again,' '9-1-1,' 'The Rookie,' 'NCIS,' 'FBI Most Wanted' and many other shows!

tvline.com

Are we going to see Karen again on Daredevil: Born Again? –Claire
San Francisco is far away. But interestingly, during my interview with showrunner Dario Scardapane and EP Sana Amanat, when I suggested that Deborah Ann Woll will have a “limited presence” in the revival, they were quick to correct me. “‘Limited presence’ I would question,” said Scardapane. “There are things to be revealed,” and “because it is this [superhero] world, don’t count everything out quite yet. There are returns that I think are surprising and inevitable.”

 

[Anwar]

So apparently this show has gotten lower views so far than Agatha did when it began.

I must say, it really is showing how fickle the audience has become as of late

 

[JD]

Matt’s Inside Line: Scoop on Daredevil, NCIS, The Rookie, 9-1-1, The Hunting Party, FBI: Most Wanted, Ghosts, All American, Grey’s Anatomy and More!

CCO Matt Webb Mitovich answers YOUR questions about 'Daredevil: Born Again,' '9-1-1,' 'The Rookie,' 'NCIS,' 'FBI Most Wanted' and many other shows!

tvline.com

Didn't Matt eventually move to San Fransico in the comics? I'm wondering if her moving there is a set up for the TV show Matt to eventually do the same thing. The only reason I question it is the show is so focused being in New York.