Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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It's what I think of when someone mentions DD in SF. I didn't actually buy DD in the 70s or the Marvel Now! era. But the Seventies storyline tied into the Avengers which I was buying at the time. IIRC, Hawkeye was in a snit over Wanda and Vision hooking up and quit the Avengers. Went to SF to look up his ex (Natasha) and things did not go well.
Marvel was well known for its romance storylines. Hooks ups. Break ups. Triangles. Very messy!
Clint and Nat were quite the item in the Sixties Avengers books. Them being best friends in the MCU was an interesting twist. And of course with Wanda, there was always Pietro factor. He's never a fan of any guy with eyes for Wanda. Human or Synthezoid. There was a quadrangle with Mantis, Swordsman, Wanda and Vision, too!
Too bad Nat is dead. She and Daredevil would have been fun to see interacting.
I just finished my rewatch of the two episodes and things definitely do stand stronger now that I've accepted the reality of Foggy's death and Karen's departure. I still hate the situation and the nature of McDuffie's and Cherry's roles as "the replacements," but I'm willing to work with them within the confines of this new narrative. As I've always said to others when shows and films don't go in the directions we want them to, I need to judge show for what it is and what it's trying to do, and not what I wish it was.
On a different note, one thing I forgot to mention the first time around but really stood out this time is how the opening scene of Matt in his new apartment after the time jump mirrors the famous scene of Fisk slowly choosing his suit in the first season. The scene with Matt isn't nearly as long but it's still a nice nod to that moment.
On a different note, one thing I forgot to mention the first time around but really stood out this time is how the opening scene of Matt in his new apartment after the time jump mirrors the famous scene of Fisk slowly choosing his suit in the first season. The scene with Matt isn't nearly as long but it's still a nice nod to that moment.
I think you're really onto something here and I think it's quite compelling, to the point that I will be disappointed if this isn't the direction the show is going towards.
Oof, that's a cover that has not aged well.
Oh yeah, I know romances are a big part of Marvel's comics, I just wasn't aware of that whole triangle.Marvel was well known for its romance storylines. Hooks ups. Break ups. Triangles. Very messy!
Clint and Nat were quite the item in the Sixties Avengers books. Them being best friends in the MCU was an interesting twist. And of course with Wanda, there was always Pietro factor. He's never a fan of any guy with eyes for Wanda. Human or Synthezoid. There was a quadrangle with Mantis, Swordsman, Wanda and Vision, too!
Too bad Nat is dead. She and Daredevil would have been fun to see interacting.
I'm both relieved that the Ayala case was resolved quickly and surprised he was murdered so swiftly. And apparently by The Punisher...?
To be clear, I knew he had a giant target on him but I didn't expect the character to die immediately. Again, as I said before, I hold no loyalties or expectations for the character, but I think it's a shame we got so little of the White Tiger and we didn't even get to see him in action beyond surveillance videos. I knew we weren't going to get him beyond this season considering the tragic death of Kamar de los Reyes (yet again, fuck cancer) so the abrupt conclusion to his story arc is disappointing (and to be fair, the writers probably didn't know de los Reyes would die so suddenly).
That said, Matt revealing Ayala's secret identity in open court, to his family and to the cops, without his consent was a dick move. I get that Matt felt cornered after the cops flipped his witness but it was hypocritical of Matt nonetheless (albeit it not for the reasons the Hawk cried over). We all know Matt would've lost his damn mind if anyone had done the same to him for the sake of a case (just imagine if Foggy had done it...).
On the other side of the playing field, I'm continuing to love the friction between Wilson and Vanessa and the power struggle between them, both in regards to the lingering criminal empire and the nature of their relationship. For all of Wilson's pretenses of not wanting to lose her (and I genuinely believe him on this manner), he's certainly acting foolishly when he continues to dictate the course of their relationship and the reins of their power. Which, of course, is why they're in therapy. But I can't imagine they'll ever be able to get anything out of it as long as they're not fully truthful to Heather about the real struggles between them. And speaking which, any guesses as to who Adam is? A character from the comics or someone entirely new?
Lastly, nice touch with the Puerto Rican frogs chirping over the closing credits. A lovely tribute to both Ayala and de los Reyes.
To be clear, I knew he had a giant target on him but I didn't expect the character to die immediately. Again, as I said before, I hold no loyalties or expectations for the character, but I think it's a shame we got so little of the White Tiger and we didn't even get to see him in action beyond surveillance videos. I knew we weren't going to get him beyond this season considering the tragic death of Kamar de los Reyes (yet again, fuck cancer) so the abrupt conclusion to his story arc is disappointing (and to be fair, the writers probably didn't know de los Reyes would die so suddenly).
That said, Matt revealing Ayala's secret identity in open court, to his family and to the cops, without his consent was a dick move. I get that Matt felt cornered after the cops flipped his witness but it was hypocritical of Matt nonetheless (albeit it not for the reasons the Hawk cried over). We all know Matt would've lost his damn mind if anyone had done the same to him for the sake of a case (just imagine if Foggy had done it...).
On the other side of the playing field, I'm continuing to love the friction between Wilson and Vanessa and the power struggle between them, both in regards to the lingering criminal empire and the nature of their relationship. For all of Wilson's pretenses of not wanting to lose her (and I genuinely believe him on this manner), he's certainly acting foolishly when he continues to dictate the course of their relationship and the reins of their power. Which, of course, is why they're in therapy. But I can't imagine they'll ever be able to get anything out of it as long as they're not fully truthful to Heather about the real struggles between them. And speaking which, any guesses as to who Adam is? A character from the comics or someone entirely new?
Lastly, nice touch with the Puerto Rican frogs chirping over the closing credits. A lovely tribute to both Ayala and de los Reyes.
There were photos taken by bystanders during a location shoot of someone other than Jon Bernthal in the Punisher suit.
I love how every word in the trial after Matt reveals Hector's secret identity, as well as Matt's entire conversation with Hector in holding, are as much about Matt as Hector. Matt trying to absolve himself and convince himself giving up DD was correct.
And the DA making the counterargument. Overall, well done.
Hector's fate was comic accurate. No way that was Frank.
Vanessa is not taking feeling iced out well. How long before she gets more aggressive with her arguments? Then how long until she breaks out Bullaeye?
And the DA making the counterargument. Overall, well done.
Hector's fate was comic accurate. No way that was Frank.
Vanessa is not taking feeling iced out well. How long before she gets more aggressive with her arguments? Then how long until she breaks out Bullaeye?
Definitely some surprises in this one.
So apparently Vanessa has her own supervillain alias "The Man". I'm definitely curious to see how bad things are going to get between her and Wilson, because at this point I don't really see either of them backing down from their positions.
Matt revealing Hector was White Tiger was a shock, and pretty shitty on his part. I understand why he did it, but you'd think he could have at least taken a minute to talk to him first.
His murder at the end was a huge shock, but the fact that they didn't actually show his face makes me assume that it wasn't actually Castle. My first thought is that it's the cop who died's partner.
So apparently Vanessa has her own supervillain alias "The Man". I'm definitely curious to see how bad things are going to get between her and Wilson, because at this point I don't really see either of them backing down from their positions.
Matt revealing Hector was White Tiger was a shock, and pretty shitty on his part. I understand why he did it, but you'd think he could have at least taken a minute to talk to him first.
His murder at the end was a huge shock, but the fact that they didn't actually show his face makes me assume that it wasn't actually Castle. My first thought is that it's the cop who died's partner.
The White Tiger trial is going to get all the attention, understandably. Was it great courtroom drama? No. But it did the job, and it had some interesting things to say about Matt and the system he works in so it's all good.
But my favorite scene of the entire episode was the Fisk's pre-counseling argument. I think Born Again has made Vanessa into a truly fascinating character in her own right. Like, she was always interesting during the Netflix run, her attraction to and fascination with Wilson was great and Ayelet Zurer is amazing. But they've really leveled her up here, and they've done it with surprising little screen time.
The way I read their argument is thusly. I don't think Wilson is really hearing his wife. She seems to be most upset that he's not telling her what the plan is. She knows there must be some kind of play, some kind of scheme, but she can't see what it is and the fact that he's keeping it to himself is pissing her off. The problem being that there may not actually be a game in play at all. Wilson, thus far, appears to actually mean what he's saying about attempting to change and rise above. Sooner or later Vanessa is going to realize that. She seems to have some inkling of it already. And that is going to be a BIG problem for her.
She has poured herself into her work. Like Walter White before her, she has broken bad and found that she's actually quite good at it. And it's frustrating to her to see that effort abandoned, seemingly discarded by Wilson and left to collapse. She likes being "the Man." And if Wilson really is serious about changing, then he's no longer really the man she married. And if she has to choose between her Empire and her husband, I think we all have a pretty good idea which way that goes.
Could they really be going there? A Fisk civil war? A King(or Queen)pin vs the mayor? What delightful chaos that would be! Wilson would be tragically despondent, but his pride and his nature would force him to respond. And it sure looks like this Vanessa has the killer instinct to turn even on Wilson. And she may have a Bullseye in her back pocket.
I can't wait to see where this goes. If they keep pushing towards a violent clash between the two, or if the show offers them some kind of common ground to bridge their divide.
But my favorite scene of the entire episode was the Fisk's pre-counseling argument. I think Born Again has made Vanessa into a truly fascinating character in her own right. Like, she was always interesting during the Netflix run, her attraction to and fascination with Wilson was great and Ayelet Zurer is amazing. But they've really leveled her up here, and they've done it with surprising little screen time.
The way I read their argument is thusly. I don't think Wilson is really hearing his wife. She seems to be most upset that he's not telling her what the plan is. She knows there must be some kind of play, some kind of scheme, but she can't see what it is and the fact that he's keeping it to himself is pissing her off. The problem being that there may not actually be a game in play at all. Wilson, thus far, appears to actually mean what he's saying about attempting to change and rise above. Sooner or later Vanessa is going to realize that. She seems to have some inkling of it already. And that is going to be a BIG problem for her.
She has poured herself into her work. Like Walter White before her, she has broken bad and found that she's actually quite good at it. And it's frustrating to her to see that effort abandoned, seemingly discarded by Wilson and left to collapse. She likes being "the Man." And if Wilson really is serious about changing, then he's no longer really the man she married. And if she has to choose between her Empire and her husband, I think we all have a pretty good idea which way that goes.
Could they really be going there? A Fisk civil war? A King(or Queen)pin vs the mayor? What delightful chaos that would be! Wilson would be tragically despondent, but his pride and his nature would force him to respond. And it sure looks like this Vanessa has the killer instinct to turn even on Wilson. And she may have a Bullseye in her back pocket.
I can't wait to see where this goes. If they keep pushing towards a violent clash between the two, or if the show offers them some kind of common ground to bridge their divide.
This has been discussed in another thread, but it's interesting that the classic "masked vigilantes" are the absolute minority in the MCU. Back when Netflix had the Daredevil series and there were no MCU Spider-Man movies, Hornhead was the only one who followed the "Superhero with a secret identity who wears a costume to fight bad guys" trope.
They had to put another vigilante in the series, because otherwise with only Spider-Man operating it was a little weird for a mayor to make fighting "the rampant epidemic of masked vigilantes" a priority.
They had to put another vigilante in the series, because otherwise with only Spider-Man operating it was a little weird for a mayor to make fighting "the rampant epidemic of masked vigilantes" a priority.
An interesting and tense episode and it was nice to see Matt as an advocate again, even if it was a desperate and dick move to expose Ayala.
The second he was found not guilty i knew he would die, the whole episode didn't disguise the hate the cops still felt for Ayala and they made up their mind even after Matt pointed out that he helped cops too. It is that small circle of Punisher fanboys that are the problem and it's exactly why i believe the killer was not the real Punisher.
I heard that the actor playing Ayala died in 2023 so this episode must have been from the scrapped first attempt that Feige killed last year, it certainly fit in with the description that they wanted the show to be a court procedural rather than a superhero show.
Big projection here - this Punisher fanclub will get bolder and get more public, probably start hunting other vigilantes which will reactivate Frank Castle to get back to New York personally to sort this out as these cops are dirty as hell.
Nice to see that Fisk is deluding himself that he left the Kingpin behind him when it's evident he hasn't. He's still the same schemer and manipulator he always ways, it's just a different angle and office from where he conducts business. Vanessa and him are heading down a dangerous road, Vanessa having taken a liking to the criminal underworld and no matter how much Fisk is lying to himself he didn't let go and he can't abide competition.
The second he was found not guilty i knew he would die, the whole episode didn't disguise the hate the cops still felt for Ayala and they made up their mind even after Matt pointed out that he helped cops too. It is that small circle of Punisher fanboys that are the problem and it's exactly why i believe the killer was not the real Punisher.
I heard that the actor playing Ayala died in 2023 so this episode must have been from the scrapped first attempt that Feige killed last year, it certainly fit in with the description that they wanted the show to be a court procedural rather than a superhero show.
Big projection here - this Punisher fanclub will get bolder and get more public, probably start hunting other vigilantes which will reactivate Frank Castle to get back to New York personally to sort this out as these cops are dirty as hell.
Nice to see that Fisk is deluding himself that he left the Kingpin behind him when it's evident he hasn't. He's still the same schemer and manipulator he always ways, it's just a different angle and office from where he conducts business. Vanessa and him are heading down a dangerous road, Vanessa having taken a liking to the criminal underworld and no matter how much Fisk is lying to himself he didn't let go and he can't abide competition.
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When Matt was listing police officers who wrote in their reports that White Tiger helped them he said "Officer Morales" so it may not actually be Jefferson Morales.
A solid third episode, if a little dry. You can definitely see the remnants of when this was just going to be a procedural show in the trial scenes. All pretty wrote stuff.
Either way, it's not like it's an uncommon hispanic surname, so it need not necessarily be him. There could be a dozen Officers named Morales in the NYPD. Or who knows? Maybe the MCU is changing things up by switching Rio & Jefferson's vocations, making him an ER nurse and her the police Captain.
I knew Hector was a dead man the moment he was found not guilty. There's clearly a clique of corrupt Punisher worshipping cops, and no way they'd let him walk away free and clear. Sad, but inevitable.
Needless to say; no way was that Frank. He'd have known Matt was representing Ayala, and whatever differences of opinion they might have, Frank knows Matt wouldn't defend a murderer . . . unless the death penalty was in play. Also needless to say that Frank is not likely to be happy to see cops using his symbol and killing in his name. Indeed he may just get downright piqued about it . . . with napalm.
Needless to say; no way was that Frank. He'd have known Matt was representing Ayala, and whatever differences of opinion they might have, Frank knows Matt wouldn't defend a murderer . . . unless the death penalty was in play. Also needless to say that Frank is not likely to be happy to see cops using his symbol and killing in his name. Indeed he may just get downright piqued about it . . . with napalm.
I'd say it's about 50/50 that such was the intent. So far as I'm aware, Jefferson's last name is Davis, while Morales is the surname of Miles' mother Rio. However, relatively recently from what I gather; in the comics Jefferson legally took his wife's family name.
Either way, it's not like it's an uncommon hispanic surname, so it need not necessarily be him. There could be a dozen Officers named Morales in the NYPD. Or who knows? Maybe the MCU is changing things up by switching Rio & Jefferson's vocations, making him an ER nurse and her the police Captain.
