Is this episode a bit "problematic"?

[Laughing Dragon]

Am I the only one that found this kind of shocking? - The Packleds? I do not have a problem with people presented as stupid. But they look and act like full on people with down syndrome in look and speech patterns. Nothing to insult. When there are people who are developmentally disabled people now being contributing members of society for lack of a better phrase and there are the ones that can't but portraying them as entitled and annoying idiots was a bit crazy. Also, this is legitely not me trolling but this is not a SJW rant either. Opinions? I ask you to please stay on topic. A little straying is fine but I rather it not get taken over. Thanks.

ETA: Notice they all have the exact same faces as well as voices. Camera trick? Either way is telling. Is it because they cured "mental retardation" in the future and were not used to this? Then there was Data as B4 and it seemed like same crap. Also, there prior treatment of Barkley.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Tosk]

But they look and act like full on people with down syndrome in look and speech patterns.

Pakleds do not look or speak like any person with Down's Syndrome I've ever spent time with.

 

[Newt]

Not really an episode I've gone back to rewatch as I remember it wasn't a great episode. And to my knowledge they never really used them again except for maybe background aliens here and there or in reference.
I'm not qualified to say if it's a take on Down's Syndrome or not.

Tbh I really don't care if an episodes made 36 years ago is 'problematic'. I'd just skip it.

 

[Michael]

Pakleds do not look or speak like any person with Down's Syndrome I've ever spent time with.

Agreed. I don’t see the resemblance to people with Down Syndrome either.

That said, I’m not the biggest fan of the idea of Pakleds as they were portrayed on Trek, because yes, they seem like a play on people with mental, intellectual and physical disabilities, and not in a good way. They basically make them the butt of a joke, which feels inappropriate. I guess there’s an argument to be made that the very concept of them being a spacefaring species gives them the kind of agency that people with disabilities don’t often have in real life. But at the same time the script does everything to portray them as inept and make us laugh about their speech patterns etc.

Is it because they cured "mental r---------n" in the future and were not used to this?

What does this mean? What does “it” refer to?

Also, for your information, as far as I know the term “mental r---------n” is considered inappropriate, insensitive and insulting and is phased out in favor of something like “intellectual disability”.

Then there was Data as B4 and it seemed like same crap.

This I don’t understand either. What same crap? B4 was portrayed as someone with Down Syndrome? That doesn’t make a lot of sense.

And to my knowledge they never really used them again except for maybe background aliens here and there. or in reference.

Oh, they did bring them back in a big way in Lower Decks, where they were the “big bad” in an entire season’s storyline.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Doing technical support, I've met a few Pakleds.

And I don't like the euphemism treadmill any better than I like the upgrade treadmill (which is to say, that if you must refer to me by my ethnicity, then please do so in the most insulting manner possible: I am a honkie, or even a "blue-eyed devil," not a "white guy").

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Doing technical support, I've met a few Pakleds.

And I don't like the euphemism treadmill any better than I like the upgrade treadmill (which is to say, that if you must refer to me by my ethnicity, then please do so in the most insulting manner possible: I am a honkie, or even a "blue-eyed devil," not a "white guy").

I am not understanding your white pain there. Are you implying that the packleds you worked with were poc? I rather keep this to the developmentally disabled. Don't read OG "Heroes for Hire" then as Luke Cage was throwing around "honkie" left and right. If not, I am sorry you had to deal with stupid people in general. It must suck.

Agreed. I don’t see the resemblance to people with Down Syndrome either.

That said, I’m not the biggest fan of the idea of Pakleds as they were portrayed on Trek, because yes, they seem like a play on people with mental, intellectual and physical disabilities, and not in a good way. They basically make them the butt of a joke, which feels inappropriate. I guess there’s an argument to be made that the very concept of them being a spacefaring species gives them the kind of agency that people with disabilities don’t often have in real life. But at the same time the script does everything to portray them as inept and make us laugh about their speech patterns etc.


What does this mean? What does “it” refer to?

Also, for your information, as far as I know the term “mental r---------n” is considered inappropriate, insensitive and insulting and is phased out in favor of something like “intellectual disability”.


This I don’t understand either. What same crap? B4 was portrayed as someone with Down Syndrome? That doesn’t make a lot of sense.


Oh, they did bring them back in a big way in Lower Decks, where they were the “big bad” in an entire season’s storyline.

I never said he had down syndrome. Not all people have down syndrome that are slow, but B4 was slow. And seen as inferior to Data. Not only by some fans but by the characters. They definitely acted awkward and annoyed around him in the beginning. Kind of like how they treated Barclay though he was not dumb, but they seemed to have felt that way because he was nervous. Let's just say they were not good with anything that had to do with the mind. Or with the Packleds not always tolerant to other aliens. Did you not note "Developmentally disabled?" in my OP. Thats why I put the other in air quotes. And back then that would be the appropriate term. "Retard" however..So, you needed that to be"intellectual disability?" No prob then. Actually, one of the terms I used (as you missed the other) was the better alternative to the other terms. Especially when going far back they were "feeble minded" No prob, though. Thanks for updating me. I thought it was still "developmentally disabled" and before it "mentally challenged. " Plus, it's the thought that counts, right? Or I would not have brought this up. Still, this is not a good ep for anyone with those disabilities to watch. Because they were made to look bad for it. No matter the intent. A whole episode was focused on the evil which is being stupid. As they were seen as sinister and something that a genius like Geordi had to basically put up with.

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

Tbh I really don't care if an episodes made 36 years ago is 'problematic'. I'd just skip it.

I agree with this. The show is old, some stuff is inevitably going to be outdated. Problematic content often comes with the territory of something being outdated. I haven't actually watch this episode so I'll keep my commentary on it to a minimum until further notice, but this is my view of the topic as well. Same with the racist episode from Season 1. I'm sure there's other examples of this that are not coming to mind in this moment.

 

[Michael]

I never said he had down syndrome. Not all people have down syndrome that are slow, but B4 was slow. And seen as inferior to Data. Not only by some fans but by the characters. They definitely acted awkward and annoyed around him in the beginning. Kind of like how they treated Barclay though he was not dumb, but they seemed to have felt that way because he was nervous. Let's just say they were not good with anything that had to do with the mind. Or with the Packleds not always tolerant to other aliens.

I would submit that you misread B4 in Nemesis and that he wasn’t meant to evoke “slow” or “mentally disabled”, but child-like. He was the blank slate version of Data that hadn’t lived a full life and wasn’t socialized. You were supposed to think he was like a naive, innocent child, not an adult that was somehow impaired.

I agree with this. The show is old, some stuff is inevitably going to be outdated. Problematic content often comes with the territory of something being outdated. I haven't actually watch this episode so I'll keep my commentary on it to a minimum until further notice, but this is my view of the topic as well. Same with the racist episode from Season 1. I'm sure there's other examples of this that are not coming to mind in this moment.

Not sure why “caring about whether the episode is problematic or not” is necessarily the same as watching or “not skipping” the episode. Can’t we just talk about and care about whether an episode of an old piece of media is problematic from today’s point of view without it having any bearing on whether someone still watches it or not?

 

[carcinoGeneticist]

Not sure why “caring about whether the episode is problematic or not” is necessarily the same as watching or “not skipping” the episode. Can’t we just talk about and care about whether an episode of an old piece of media is problematic from today’s point of view without it having any bearing on whether someone still watches it or not?

Alright. Sorry.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Well, this is certainly a topic.

 

[Michael]

Alright. Sorry.

No reason to be. Sorry if I came off snarky. Miserable day at the office. And this wasn't necessarily only directed at you, as I see this sentiment expressed all the time.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I would submit that you misread B4 in Nemesis and that he wasn’t meant to evoke “slow” or “mentally disabled”, but child-like. He was the blank slate version of Data that hadn’t lived a full life and wasn’t socialized. You were supposed to think he was like a naive, innocent child, not an adult that was somehow impaired.


Not sure why “caring about whether the episode is problematic or not” is necessarily the same as watching or “not skipping” the episode. Can’t we just talk about and care about whether an episode of an old piece of media is problematic from today’s point of view without it having any bearing on whether someone still watches it or not?

Yeah, if that's the case fine then. But i remember fans seeing B4 as an inferior replacement. Not because he was innocent. Maybe that colored it. But I don't think it did. Maybe I was being oversensitive.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I am not understanding your white pain there. Are you implying that the packleds you worked with were poc? I rather keep this to the developmentally disabled. Don't read OG "Heroes for Hire" then as Luke Cage was throwing around "honkie" left and right.

Huh?
1. I've never heard the term "white pain" before. And a OneLook search doesn't find any definitions. And what little turns up in a Google search makes me think I probably don't want to know what it means.

2.I don't encourage anybody to refer to me by my ethnicity, but if they do, I prefer "honkie" or "blue-eyed devil," because I don't ever want to forget the wrongs that people who look like me have done to people who don't look like me.

3. I've never heard of "Heroes for Hire" or Luke Cage.

4. And as for comparing some of the denser tech support callers to Pakleds, I am saying that they are either failing to RTFM, or they're really slow on the uptake, or maybe both. And I've been a tad Pakled-esque at times myself, although that's usually with stuff that isn't exactly well-documented or well-supported.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Huh?
1. I've never heard the term "white pain" before. And a OneLook search doesn't find any definitions. And what little turns up in a Google search makes me think I probably don't want to know what it means.

2.I don't encourage anybody to refer to me by my ethnicity, but if they do, I prefer "honkie" or "blue-eyed devil," because I don't ever want to forget the wrongs that people who look like me have done to people who don't look like me.

3. I've never heard of "Heroes for Hire" or Luke Cage.

What does that have to do with the topic though? Sorry about that phrase. Then "Male white entitlement?" Or you could be a woman, I am sorry, as that should not be default sex when it comes to science and technology. Luke cage is a black Marvel comic character. Though he has been updated.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

What does that have to do with the topic though?

Not a whole lot. It has to do with the matter of the euphemism treadmill. It's not that long ago that "mentally retarded" was the polite term. And if we keep riding the euphemism treadmill, it probably won't be too long before "intellectually challenged" is considered (to use Michael's phrasing) "inappropriate, insensitive and insulting."

 

[Michael]

I’m afraid that’s the nature of language, though. It’s not a stagnant thing, but constantly evolving and changing through usage and changing sensibilities. It’s always a tool to express what you think and how you see the world. And it’s powerful because usually the way we talk about a thing tells others how we think about that thing and as thus it becomes a mirror of our society. Language can help make people feel seen and included. And I personally happen to think it’s a good thing to spend some time trying use the words people prefer to be used for them.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Not a whole lot. It has to do with the matter of the euphemism treadmill. It's not that long ago that "mentally retarded" was the polite term. And if we keep riding the euphemism treadmill, it probably won't be too long before "intellectually challenged" is considered (to use Michael's phrasing) "inappropriate, insensitive and insulting."

Ok, thanks.

 

[Kor]

It's been a long time since I watched the episode. It did subvert expectations (of both the Starfleet protagonists and us as viewers) by having the Pakleds' "innocent" routine be a way to con victims out of more technology. But our heroes kind of fumbled a number of times along the way.

Kor

 

[Farscape One]

Honestly, the person who came off as an idiot the most was Riker. He sent his Chief Engineer, alone, to an unknown ship. Solo person away teams are not a good idea. (Unless for specific reasons like a diplomatic mission.) Even VOY later says it's recommended Starfleet policy to send a minimum of two for an away team. (Janeway says it's her policy, which Tuvok corroborates as Starfleet guidelines to Seven.)

Worf raised the point to Riker. Troi sensed danger ahead of the trouble. Riker ignored both of them.

This is a case where Riker's confidence made him make a bad decision.



The Pakleds were mostly in the background of many DS9 episodes. But LOWER DECKS actually made REALLY good use of them. In fact, they actually made the Pakleds a credible, legitimate threat. No matter what anyone can say about that show, the writers showed remarkable skill to be able to turn the Pakleds from what we saw in "Samaritan Snare" into a real danger.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

You're not the first person to notice that. I suspect that "Lower Decks" tweaked the Pakleds' designs a bit for that reason.