Must There Be A Section 31?

[Detached Nacelle]

I think there's a difference between Starfleet black ops and Section 31 operations. Yeah Starfleet can do shadowy things sometimes but at an accepted level of accountability. Section 31 comes in when you need anonymity or a scapegoat and sometimes it can be a scalpel like during the Dominion War and other times you need a chainsaw like in the Section 31 film, general peacetime so not as much need for finesse and if you need to blend in to the lawless underworld you need loud idiots who by standing out don't stand out. As for why Garrett was attached as a Starfleet liaison I think we're seeing the transitional period for the organisation, probably not known to just any old citizen or even officer but the upcoming Tzenkethi and Cardassian wars are likely to have pushed Starfleet's extreme measures and general screw the rules division much further into the shadows.

But overall yes, I think Section 31 is necessary, no utopia can ever truly exist, it will always have a seedy underbelly keeping everything in order.

 

[FredH]

As I think I said upthread, we might feel differently if S31 had preemptively stopped the Xindi or the Borg or Vger from attacking Earth. It would be interesting to see an alternate timeline where such occurred.

Or for that matter, if we were to learn we’re already living in such a world, because it turns out Section 31 stopped the Tra’Ga-Lossh Devastation that destroyed the Federation in the 2240s in Universe-TGLD.

 

[FredH]

I think there's a difference between Starfleet black ops and Section 31 operations. Yeah Starfleet can do shadowy things sometimes but at an accepted level of accountability. Section 31 comes in when you need anonymity or a scapegoat and sometimes it can be a scalpel like during the Dominion War and other times you need a chainsaw like in the Section 31 film, general peacetime so not as much need for finesse and if you need to blend in to the lawless underworld you need loud idiots who by standing out don't stand out. As for why Garrett was attached as a Starfleet liaison I think we're seeing the transitional period for the organisation, probably not known to just any old citizen or even officer but the upcoming Tzenkethi and Cardassian wars are likely to have pushed Starfleet's extreme measures and general screw the rules division much further into the shadows.

But overall yes, I think Section 31 is necessary, no utopia can ever truly exist, it will always have a seedy underbelly keeping everything in order.

There should be a difference. Until now, I’ve assumed that Starfleet Intelligence is the necessary but acknowledged CIA, whereas Section 31 is the “no, we would never do such things!” CIA. So it’s odd to have S31 investigating alternate realities and going after the random superweapon dealer, unless there’s some level of secrecy that automatically pushes it in to S31’s lane.

(As to the question of whether it’s necessary, my answer is divided. Intelligence and dirty tricks to get it, even assassinations when necessary? I imagine we need it. A flat-out War Crimes Dept of torture and genocide? No, of course not.)

 

[Nerys Myk]

There should be a difference. Until now, I’ve assumed that Starfleet Intelligence is the necessary but acknowledged CIA, whereas Section 31 is the “no, we would never do such things!” CIA. So it’s odd to have S31 investigating alternate realities and going after the random superweapon dealer, unless there’s some level of secrecy that automatically pushes it in to S31’s lane.

I think Section 31 decides what interests Section 31.

 

[FredH]

I think Section 31 decides what interests Section 31.

In practice, no doubt that’s true.

 

[fireproof78]

There should be a difference. Until now, I’ve assumed that Starfleet Intelligence is the necessary but acknowledged CIA, whereas Section 31 is the “no, we would never do such things!” CIA. So it’s odd to have S31 investigating alternate realities and going after the random superweapon dealer, unless there’s some level of secrecy that automatically pushes it in to S31’s lane.

(As to the question of whether it’s necessary, my answer is divided. Intelligence and dirty tricks to get it, even assassinations when necessary? I imagine we need it. A flat-out War Crimes Dept of torture and genocide? No, of course not.)

Yeah!

Save that for the captains

 

[The Wormhole]

I’ve assumed that Starfleet Intelligence is the necessary but acknowledged CIA,

Starfleet Intelligence would be an ONI parallel rather than a CIA one.

 

[Deks]

The only things Section 31 can do that we haven't seen our heroes do is create a bioweapon with the explicit goal of genocide and actually use it, and classic evil admiral stuff like try to start a war. It's an unnecessary organization because Kirk can hijack a Romulan cloaking device, Picard can already go undercover and infiltrate a crew of thieves looking for a superweapon, Sisko can poison the atmosphere of a planet to stop a terrorist, Janeway can torture renegade Starfleet Officers, M'Benga can create a temporary super solider serum and massacre some Klingons, and Jack Ransom can lead a covert team to extract a prisoner from Romulus itself.

There's not much room for a secret organization willing to do the hard things Starfleet won't when Starfleet is perfectly willing to do those things, or at the very least not even come close to really punishing officers who do.

To be clear, SF is NOT usually engaging in these tactics... it explores all peaceful solutions first (which usually does the trick), and if that fails, then comes the time for more aggressive action (which tends to work if the first one fails).

That said, its also accurate to say that SF officers did act in certain situations in a certain way... though I don't particularly remember Janeway torturing Lessing... all the did was really intimidate the man in the hopes he will break - as Chakotay at the time explained, she still took it too far, but it never reached 'torture' level.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

To be clear, SF is NOT usually engaging in these tactics... it explores all peaceful solutions first (which usually does the trick), and if that fails, then comes the time for more aggressive action (which tends to work if the first one fails).

That said, its also accurate to say that SF officers did act in certain situations in a certain way... though I don't particularly remember Janeway torturing Lessing... all the did was really intimidate the man in the hopes he will break - as Chakotay at the time explained, she still took it too far, but it never reached 'torture' level.

The closest Janeway gets to performing Section 31 type missions is the Omega Directive.

The Omega Directive - Classified to the Captain’s rank and above. Janeway says that all Captains are trained on how to deal with Omega particles and neutralize them.

Her outburst against the crew of the Equinox would be more frustration at the callous cruelty performed by Captain Ransom and his unrepentant crew.


But the fact that every captain can expect to perform missions outside of exploration and diplomacy on any day ending in ‘y’. It just strains why the notion of a black ops branch of Section 31 would need to exist. We have enough evil admirals to cover the Section 31 avenue as well.

 

[fireproof78]

But the fact that every captain can expect to perform missions outside of exploration and diplomacy on any day ending in ‘y’. It just strains why the notion of a black ops branch of Section 31 would need to exist. We have enough evil admirals to cover the Section 31 avenue as well.

Plausible deniability.

 

[DonIago]

S31 does the dirty things so that better people don't have to.

^...is an argument I'm sure they'd make.

IIRC, in the novelverse an S31 agent at one point claims that S31 has been sabotaging a planetary civilization's efforts to develop warp drive because the civilization is extremely xenophobic and their technology would otherwise constitute a threat to those they encountered.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't particularly remember Janeway torturing Lessing... all the did was really intimidate the man in the hopes he will break - as Chakotay at the time explained, she still took it too far, but it never reached 'torture' level.

Leaving a handcuffed man alone in a room with an alien who has intent to kill him is torture.

 

[DonIago]

Leaving a handcuffed man alone in a room with an alien who has intent to kill him is torture.

Lucille Bluth: "I just want to give him a little scare..."

 

[Phily B]

Section 31 would have been an awesome idea if they just kept it to one episode.

But like with most great ideas, the subsequent writers have to come along and ruin the idea cause they don't get the concept.

See - The Borg Queen.

 

[fireproof78]

The Borg Queen entirely ignores what made the Borg unique.

 

[Deks]

Leaving a handcuffed man alone in a room with an alien who has intent to kill him is torture.

The aliens never got into the cargo-bay before Chakotay stepped in and took him out.
And we don't know conclusively if Janeway would have put up the shields a second longer before Chakotay jumped to Lessing's rescue. At worst, it was a breach of ethics on her part, but at the same time, in her head, the Aliens weren't listening (yet), and the Equinox crew posed an increasing threat where they could have murdered more aliens (at least from her perspective).

Her anger at Ransom and his crew clouded her judgment yes (Which lead to her ignoring Chakotay's initial suggestions), but still, eventually, she did listen to Chakotay (although she did relieve him of duty).

 

[fireproof78]

Leaving a handcuffed man alone in a room with an alien who has intent to kill him is torture.

Yes, it is. Doesn't matter if you plan to rescue them the purpose was to insight extreme fear and torture and individual in to cooperation.

That he believed it was torture enough. Just like O'Brien having implanted memories. Oh, but they never actually did that stuff to him so it's not torture...

 

[Deks]

Yes, it is. Doesn't matter if you plan to rescue them the purpose was to insight extreme fear and torture and individual in to cooperation.

That he believed it was torture enough. Just like O'Brien having implanted memories. Oh, but they never actually did that stuff to him so it's not torture...

While I agree that Lessing was put through what technically fits the parameters of torture in name, there is a 'slight' difference.
O'Brien underwent years (in his mind) of what was equivalent of mental torture and suffered PTSD for it.

Lessing experienced fear and discomfort for what... all of few minutes? Most of which were self-induced. He wasn't innocent (which again doesn't entirely justify it, but still).

Compared to what he and his crew were doing to the aliens and what they could have been doing right at that minute (from Janeway's perspective at least), I don't know how comparable the two scenarios actually are - especially because Lessing's fears and dread were effectively self-induced well before VOY found them (aka, the Equinox crew initiated hostilities and suffered prolonged physical and mental trauma - that was self-induced).

Given the circumstances, Janeway's judgment was clouded yes, and she could have gone with Chakotay's suggestions from the start, but you also have to consider that the proverbial clock was ticking and the Equinox could have murdered more aliens and while she was personally angry at Ransom, she was mainly morally outraged at his conduct as a SF captain - and they were cut off from SF as a whole.

Motivation and circumstances should also come into play. Janeway put Lessing through that ordeal in an attempt to try and quickly put a stop to Ransom and the Equinox crew actions for the greater good (and because Ransom betrayed SF principles/ideals to a massive extent).

O'Brien was put through years of pointless mental torture because the aliens made a mistake in convicting him (a product of a bad justice system to boot).

 

[The Wormhole]

Lessing experienced fear and discomfort for what... all of few minutes?

Don't underestimate the long term impact a belief that one is about to die can have, even if they only believe that for "a few minutes."

He wasn't innocent

If you want to play that card, then it should be noted Lessing was not the one who decided to start killing the aliens and use their corpses as fuel, so there's no reason to put him to death for that. Or even to make him think he's being put to death.

 

[fireproof78]

While I agree that Lessing was put through what technically fits the parameters of torture in name, there is a 'slight' difference.
O'Brien underwent years (in his mind) of what was equivalent of mental torture and suffered PTSD for it.

You don't think Lessing suffered PTSD?

None of these qualifications make it less torture.