Spoilers STAR TREK: SECTION 31 - Grading & Discussion

[NCC-73515]

What about this? (Funny how we get back to the size discussion)

No numbers, but you can see how big it is in relation to other ships.

That's a really small milky way, must be Beverly's warp bubble mist universe!

That happens almost every time someone is out of phase with everything else around them, so it's not an issue that's unique to Section31.

In TNG, someone phased/merged with the floor and was dead, but I don't remember how

The DS9 Defiant is way too small in FC compared to the Enterprise-E. That bugs you once you learn the former's proper scale.

Lens distortion. It's all just different lenses. Then JJ added flair.

There was in those? Must have missed them.

Cardie!

I don't really get why TNG changed the Romulan makeup to begin with, seeing as Balance of Terror, the first and most important Romulan episode in TOS, builds a whole subplot around the fact that the Romulan commander resembles Spock.

That was the "other matter" they were so busy with for all those years

 

[fireproof78]

TNG, someone phased/merged with the floor and was dead, but I don't remember how

While investigating, Van Mayter is killed when the matter/space anomaly appears beneath her, causing her to phase partially through the deck of the ship, wherein she is trapped when it re-materializes.

~In Theory.

 

[Tosk]

In TNG, someone phased/merged with the floor and was dead, but I don't remember how

In Theory. Either the officer or the deck went out of phase for a moment, and when it stopped they were part-way through.

 

[Daedalus]

These are both 1962 Chevrolet cars.

If you can accept that both these cars can be made in the same year by the same manufacturer, than accepting that Starfleet can make both the Miranda and Walker class within several decades of eachother, isn't that difficult.

But there is no hand of God visually rebooting the universe we live in, so this works. It works because our visual world is reliable.

When we saw DSC Klingons on screen for the first time, we were told this is how they always looked(for the sake of Discovery and spin-offs, though much was dumped). It was a new visual style for a new visual age. There was no intention for them to look like TNG Klingons one day, we were to accept that this is it from now on. The same way a Walker class would never give rise to a Miranda class.

The thing is, ships from 66-05 were pretty tight. We had seen an Excelsior class on screen with a Defiant class, Defiant on screen with a TOS Constition, TOS Constitution on screen with an NX class, Miranda with an Excelsior, Miranda with a Galaxy class, Galaxy with an Oberth class, Oberth with a refit Constitution. The list can go on and on.

What we aren't going to see is a Malachowski with an Oberth class, or a TOS Constitution with a Shepard class, Pioneer class with a Walker and so on. It's different visual continuities and that's how it's supposed to be.

If any of the above ever happened, I'd be overjoyed. I dislike the visual rift that has occurred between all these shows. Size be dammed, have a SNW Constitution rendezvous with a TOS Constitution and let the fans go nuts.

Maybe the visual canon shouldn't be treated as dogma because it's a tv show and sometimes they make the bird of preys too big and sometimes they give the Yamato a NCC-1305-E because the people making it are only human and trying to make sense of it is impossible unless you're willing to ignore something. Which can be fun! I love tech manuals and stuff, but I don't take them seriously enough that if what's on screen doesn't match up with what was in it or what was in the previous show that it's going to detract from my enjoyment of it.

Mistakes happen, especially with scaling and numbers on screen.

Recent Star Trek has been hinting that it all happened, TOS, Disco and SNW, exactly as it appeared, with no visual reboot. Picard makes it clear that the SNW and TOS Constitution designs both existed, Lower Decks shows that all the uniforms existed, even Section 31 has a classic TOS phaser. Really all SNW has to do now is end with the possibility that the ship could get a refit before TOS and it can connect up.

Actually, you know what, granted. Small efforts have been made, and I appreciate that. Sometimes it feels like superficial fan teases, but if it all connects up in one glorious and messy tapestry, then I'm all for it.

 

[NCC-73515]

I remember one of the production people saying that they changed the Enterprise to fit into the Disco universe

 

[Daedalus]

I remember one of the production people saying that they changed the Enterprise to fit into the Disco universe

Yes, Fuller (or Fuller's successors) requested that it should be changed to fit in better with his new show. So it wasn't supposed to be the same ship, only in spirit. Or, to put it another way, it totally replaced Matt Jefferies design.

If it was the intention that the Discovery Enterprise would still become the TOS Enterprise*, and the ship simply looked this way in the 2250s, then that's different. Odd, but somehow workable with a lot of handwaving.

*Eaves did envisage that, but I can't see it being acknowledged.

 

[fireproof78]

When we saw DSC Klingons on screen for the first time, we were told this is how they always looked

We were?

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, we were never told that. I just assumed (and with lines of dialogue from T'Kuvma and later Kol hinting that humans had somehow been guilty of changing Klingons at the molecular/genetic level that the Remain Klingon movement was related, at least in part, to the Augment Virus and failed attempts to reverse its effects).

 

[NCC-73515]

One of the designers said the Klingons are avians and have sensory pits all over their heads now, which is why they didn't have hair

 

[Daedalus]

We were?

I mean, was that not the intention? Same with the Enterprise?

Yeah, we were never told that. I just assumed (and with lines of dialogue from T'Kuvma and later Kol hinting that humans had somehow been guilty of changing Klingons at the molecular/genetic level that the Remain Klingon movement was related, at least in part, to the Augment Virus and failed attempts to reverse its effects).

So no visual reboot? They just exist alongside TOS and TNG Klingons for one reason or another?

Hey that's great, I have no problem with that. I'm seeing the word "visual reboot" in my dreams I've had to suffer it so long.

 

[cooleddie74]

I just figure that the DSC Klingons are the failed attempt to reverse engineer the Augment Virus and scientists going a little too far towards more primitive proto-Klingon features, the TNG/Movie-style ones in SNW are the start of the return to normal for Klingon society and the TOS Augments are the last waves of Klingons affected by the Augment Virus before the problem is eradicated around the time of ST:TMP.

 

[Daedalus]

I just figure that the DSC Klingons are the failed attempt to reverse engineer the Augment Virus and scientists going a little too far towards more primitive proto-Klingon features, the TNG/Movie-style ones in SNW are the start of the return to normal for Klingon society and the TOS Augments are the last waves of Klingons affected by the Augment Virus before the problem is eradicated around the time of ST:TMP.

That definitely works for me.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

It was my impression that Glenn Hetrick’s DSC Klingons at the time were just gonna be the new standard look of Klingons in the streaming era and foreseeable future. They were just gonna completely bypass the whole smooth forehead thing, effectively ignore the two parter from Enterprise.

I’m actually okay with ignoring the TOS look of Klingons, but I certainly wasn’t a fan of their new take on Klingon makeup design. It just makes the actors look like they’re struggling to act with all the masks and their mouthes are muffled with the over designed fake teeth.

So I’m glad SNW returned to the more traditional 1979-2005 general look of Klingons. I don’t think “Under the Cloak of War" would have benefitted Robert Wisdom trying to deliver all that dialogue with the heavy Glenn Hetrick makeup.

 

[Farscape One]

Let's not forget that the size was never firmly established in continuity. The size commonly thrown around doesn't work.

As for the difference, as the movie says, it was a pretty substantial redesign. It's just easier to look at and accept the SNW Enterprise becoming the refit than it is to accept the TOS version.

And in regard to TMP Enterprise looking archaic, the fact it was designed over a decade later with much more attention paid to surface detailing. Having a motion picture budget, as opposed to a TV budget, certainly helps. Just as Star Wars or Alien doesn't look dated, the same can be said for the TMP Enterprise.

IMO.

The refit Enterprise is gorgeous. It will never look dated.

Yes, this was a screen uses display. And I'm not sure what the hell that is. At first glance I thought it was this thing from the DS9TM.

But upon closer inspection, it's clearly not.

Has a new ship just been discovered?

I think the ship could be one of those background kitbashes you see orbiting DS9 on occasion. (First seen in "DOCTOR BASHIR, I PRESUME" when the title appears, it's a frequently used ship and shot from that point forward.)

 

[Daedalus]

I know we've sidetracked a bit, so apologies for dragging it out further.
(Just watch me veer off course even more)

But, i'm reminded of the Silurians from Doctor Who. When Steven Moffat reintroduced them in Series 5, he wanted them to look different but emphasised in interviews that they were intended to be a different branch of the same species, and so the original Silurians still existed. He added to the world, he didn't subtract.

Also, Chris Chibnall wanted to see the expressions in the actor's faces, to contrast with the human emotions of the other characters.

@MakeshiftPython has made a very good point about "Under the Cloak of War". You would lose a lot if the actor had a limited range of facial motion and sounded like his cheeks were stuffed with cotton wool.

I don't think the TNG Klingons could ever be bettered by another design, for reasons such as that.

 

[Yistaan]

The Discovery Klingon design was propelled by one thing--to make the Ash/Voq business surprising, which wouldn't have happened if Shazad Latif were under the old style makeup. Once that ridiculous plotline ran its course, there was no need for the extreme Klingon Discovery look anymore.

 

[Tosk]

Of course, if they really wanted to keep that "surprise" (which it never really was anyway) and also the older Klingon design, they could have simply cast one actor as Voq and one as Tyler.

But they also would have needed to write the 'mystery' of it all better too.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

One of the most bizarre parts about the DSC Klingons thing was that by S2 Kurtzman was insisting “oh we just forgot to point out in S1 that Klingons shave their hair during a time of war, our bad” (which was never a thing, and various parts of S1 clearly contradict that). Four years later, SNW proceeds to show flashbacks of that war we saw in DSC, but with traditional long haired Klingons in combat. I dunno why Kurtzman bothered trying to make up an explanation for the bald Klingons. I’d respect him a bit more if he simply admitted “we wanted to try a new look with Klingons, but that didn’t quite work out the way we hoped, so we just went back to the classic design”. It’s clear he listened to the fans on that regard. Hell, SNW exists because fans wanted it, so it’s okay to just concede about that.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I just figure that the DSC Klingons are the failed attempt to reverse engineer the Augment Virus and scientists going a little too far towards more primitive proto-Klingon features, the TNG/Movie-style ones in SNW are the start of the return to normal for Klingon society and the TOS Augments are the last waves of Klingons affected by the Augment Virus before the problem is eradicated around the time of ST:TMP.

But it caused them to get weird pointed ears and double nostrils on their noses. Also purple hued klingons. Thst must have been one dumb scientist or team of scientists. Lol

 

[Tosk]

One of the most bizarre parts about the DSC Klingons thing was that by S2 Kurtzman was insisting “oh we just forgot to point out in S1 that Klingons shave their hair during a time of war, our bad”

I guess during war Klingons also stretch their heads out and turn purple?