What was up w/ T'Pol and Tucker?

[Captain X]

I think the thing that spoils it the most for me is the immaturity that was so prevalent in it. While I admit to having the first decon scene as something of a guilty pleasure, it really had no point and was frankly pretty stupid (but then so were all the other antics in that room). They started to do good with Breaking the Ice by actually showing us some kind of understanding/respect developing between them, but with Season 2, Trip got turned into the comedy relief and apparently TPTB thought we'd think Archer was more cool if they had him have wet dreams about her and do a face dive into her cleavage. Then in Season 3 they basically started TnT out over again, but forced it by doing the whole topless massage thing and tried to have the characters play it like it wasn't meant to be sexual at all. But then for most TV network producers, the default solution to falling ratings is to "sex it up", so that's what we got instead of something else like say meditation, actual character development, stuff like that. Then they played the jealous angle in yet another immature episode, had them do it, then had T'Pol brush it off like it was nothing. Then they started with the "will they/won't they" angst and kept it going to the end of the series. That's what sucked about it for me, and I actually do consider myself a TnT'er. I guess the appeal I saw there was more the potential I saw with it than with about 75% of the execution of it. But then that's pretty much the story with me for ENT as a whole.

 

[JiNX-01]

I think the thing that spoils it the most for me is the immaturity that was so prevalent in it. While I admit to having the first decon scene as something of a guilty pleasure, it really had no point and was frankly pretty stupid (but then so were all the other antics in that room)

You know what was really stupid about the decon scene? It made no sense from a medical or ship's safety POV:

Trip and T'Pol are put in isolation so spores they were exposed to wouldn't spread among the crew. But Archer, Hoshi, Travis and Reed were in close quarters aboard the shuttle returning to the ship... so why aren't they also in decon? Because two's company and six is a crowd?

 

[1grandpa]

I thought it had potential. Just like I thought the friendship between Archer and T'Pol had potential. Perhaps the way I look at Enterprise, so much potential, is the way I look at Trip and T'Pol. The actors are first rate. And, I had my hopes raised with the stories involving the Andorians or the Orion slave traders...but I digress

 

[commodore64]

*Rubs eyes*

I agree with the poster who asks why in the world they tried Trip/T'Pol. I saw no chemistry. In fact, I enjoyed their relationship much more when they were antagonistic friends - like Spock and McCoy. Trip pressed her buttons and she responded in ways that had the upper hand. When they began a relationship, they destroyed that interesting dynamic.

As for sex sells, I would argue that "good sex" sells. Since I'm a history buff, I'll use "the Tudors" from Showtime. Some of it is just silly and over the top. I kind of feel insulted as an audience member occasionally. And maybe I'm old fashioned, but the suggestion of sex is so much more interesting than sex itself .. at least on television. I would much rather see a relationship develop than two people rub on each other.

 

[KayArr]

When I rewatch the dvds, I buy them as a couple that consumated their relationship and went on together. I accept Trip's death in TATV, but in my mind, all of the "facts" in the episode are just a holonovel gone wrong. In my mind, they had the years before his death to enjoy together. Sheesh, am I really talking this way about a tv show romance? But really, that was the most disappointing thing about TATV--they'd been building this relationship for four years, had a great ep with Terra Prime, then B&B said it ended that day? What were they thinking? They could have done Trip's death without that and made it work. The new novel that has Trip alive and exiled from the crew actually seems worse than just accepting his death as cannon.

 

[gblews]

*Rubs eyes*
And maybe I'm old fashioned, but the suggestion of sex is so much more interesting than sex itself .. at least on television. I would much rather see a relationship develop than two people rub on each other.

Hmm, to me, rubbing oil on each other was the suggestion of sex as opposed to actual sex. Now if you're saying you saw some of that involving T'Pol and Tucker, I'm going to have to rush out and get those DVD's.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I think if there was any lack of "chemistry" it was because T'Pol is a Vulcan and she necessarily suppressed emotions. It seemed they had to beef up whatever chemistry there was by using a plot device that had T'Pol become addicted to a substance that ramped up her emotions.

That's bullshit.

Not your post, but the need of TIIC to ramp up her emotions and take away the thing that made her a Vulcan. Granted, T'Pol's emotional foundation was shaky from the beginning by Vulcan standards--and I was mostly okay with it. I was pissed when the drug thing to tap into her emotions became little more than to force a relationship. I'd felt 100 percent the same way if it were done to pimp Archer/T'Pol or anyone else she were to be paired off with.

Her emotion journey should have been HERS. As in, mostly about T'Pol working out her issues and having Trip or whoever there supporting her, *then* romance. Not have issues that get pushed aside for romance. Honestly, if the lack of emotion was a chemistry killer, we wouldn't have had literally YEARS of passionate fighting between fans over which man T'Pol should be with. I think it's a shame that we had to have only three characters that fans could really get that invested to, but that's another topic entirely.

But really, that was the most disappointing thing about TATV--they'd been building this relationship for four years, had a great ep with Terra Prime, then B&B said it ended that day? What were they thinking? They could have done Trip's death without that and made it work. The new novel that has Trip alive and exiled from the crew actually seems worse than just accepting his death as cannon.

I haven't read the book yet, but I was thinking that Trip's resurrection would be a hollow victory for some for that reason (You're actually the first T/T'P fan I've come across to express those sentiments, actually). I mean, he doesn't get his happily ever after with the woman he loves, like so many wants to see, and by the time he's 120 in the book that precedes that one (I read it, but the title escapes me at 3 in the morning), he's damn close to the end of his life span, and so is T'Pol, assuming she didn't die already. He's spent all his life on the run since he was in his 30's...I'm not ever a Trip fangirl, and I feel for the character. He was better off dead IMO, albiet not the red-shirt ensign send-off he got in TATV.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

I think if there was any lack of "chemistry" it was because T'Pol is a Vulcan and she necessarily suppressed emotions. It seemed they had to beef up whatever chemistry there was by using a plot device that had T'Pol become addicted to a substance that ramped up her emotions.

That's bullshit.

Not your post, but the need of TIIC to ramp up her emotions and take away the thing that made her a Vulcan. Granted, T'Pol's emotional foundation was shaky from the beginning by Vulcan standards--and I was mostly okay with it. I was pissed when the drug thing to tap into her emotions became little more than to force a relationship. I'd felt 100 percent the same way if it were done to pimp Archer/T'Pol or anyone else she were to be paired off with.

It didn't really bother me because we saw that T'Pol, from the start, was always curious about emotions from episodes like Fusion. Experimenting with a drug, which according to the writers, she was hooked after her first encounter with it in Impulse, didn't really surprise me because it seemed to be in her curious and rebal nature. I think maybe she underestimated how addictive it was and hoped in the beginning that she could control it. Later in Azinti Prime and Damage she was becomming aware that this wasn't possible.

But really, that was the most disappointing thing about TATV--they'd been building this relationship for four years, had a great ep with Terra Prime, then B&B said it ended that day? What were they thinking? They could have done Trip's death without that and made it work. The new novel that has Trip alive and exiled from the crew actually seems worse than just accepting his death as cannon.

I haven't read the book yet, but I was thinking that Trip's resurrection would be a hollow victory for some for that reason (You're actually the first T/T'P fan I've come across to express those sentiments, actually). I mean, he doesn't get his happily ever after with the woman he loves, like so many wants to see, and by the time he's 120 in the book that precedes that one (I read it, but the title escapes me at 3 in the morning), he's damn close to the end of his life span, and so is T'Pol, assuming she didn't die already. He's spent all his life on the run since he was in his 30's...I'm not ever a Trip fangirl, and I feel for the character. He was better off dead IMO, albiet not the red-shirt ensign send-off he got in TATV.[/quote]

Actually we don't know what happens to Trip and T'Pol yet. From what we read in the book and the small two chapters tells us nothing, only that he was 120 years old and visiting Florida. We don't now anything inbetween or what his or her life were like from the end of TGTMD and the small chapter in the MACO. We are given clues in the book, IMO, that something more will happen with them and that they do stay together and bonded. We will just have to wait and see when the next books to come out how their journey is going to progress.

 

[commodore64]

Not your post, but the need of TIIC to ramp up her emotions and take away the thing that made her a Vulcan. Granted, T'Pol's emotional foundation was shaky from the beginning by Vulcan standards--and I was mostly okay with it. I was pissed when the drug thing to tap into her emotions became little more than to force a relationship. I'd felt 100 percent the same way if it were done to pimp Archer/T'Pol or anyone else she were to be paired off with.

Her emotion journey should have been HERS.

100% agree. I bolded the last statement b/c that would be good writing. It's important to care about your characters. T'Pol, imo, frequently got das boot from the writers. The most Vulcan I'd seen her was in The Forge, and I felt like they managed to back track that in short order. Sad, because I think Reeves-Stevens would've liked to continue with Vulcan!T'Pol. I was for that.

Gblews, I think the decon scene was more than suggestion. In fact, I watched that and thought, "Oh, God - that's stupid." That was nearly enough to make me turn off the television and stop watching Enterprise for good. I felt that Voyager turned into the Love Boat and really hated that about the show ... err, among other things. I didn't want to have to sit through another Love Boat. (Note: Ironic that I was an A/T'P shipper? Not really. I was rooting for no romance on-screen. Hey, got what I wanted. :P)

Luckily, by the end of Broken Bow, I was left with the impression that maybe they weren't going to go anywhere with it or would tone it down. And they did. For a while.

 

[Captain X]

I haven't read the book yet, but I was thinking that Trip's resurrection would be a hollow victory for some for that reason (You're actually the first T/T'P fan I've come across to express those sentiments, actually). I mean, he doesn't get his happily ever after with the woman he loves, like so many wants to see, and by the time he's 120 in the book that precedes that one (I read it, but the title escapes me at 3 in the morning), he's damn close to the end of his life span, and so is T'Pol, assuming she didn't die already. He's spent all his life on the run since he was in his 30's...I'm not ever a Trip fangirl, and I feel for the character. He was better off dead IMO, albiet not the red-shirt ensign send-off he got in TATV.

There are actually a number of TnT'ers who aren't happy at all with the books. Some still like the fact that Trip isn't dead, and the fact he's been separated from T'Pol doesn't bother them because they actually like angst. But I myself and most of my online friends agree that the relaunch books aren't really any better than TATV itself - the character assassinations are still present, the "will they/won't they" angst from the last half of S3 and all of S4 is still there, and Trip might as well be dead because he's being forced to live a lie, and away from the people he cares about. And frankly the end of LFM doesn't give any indication that that condition will ever change for him.

 

[KayArr]

That's my opinion, too--Trip might have died 8 years after Terra Prime or whatever it was, but none of the other facts in TATV are correct, that episode is not the true story, it's some bad "choose your own adventure holonovel." Of course they got together! How could not they not after 4 years of build up?

 

[Anna Yolei]

I think if there was any lack of "chemistry" it was because T'Pol is a Vulcan and she necessarily suppressed emotions. It seemed they had to beef up whatever chemistry there was by using a plot device that had T'Pol become addicted to a substance that ramped up her emotions.

That's bullshit.

Not your post, but the need of TIIC to ramp up her emotions and take away the thing that made her a Vulcan. Granted, T'Pol's emotional foundation was shaky from the beginning by Vulcan standards--and I was mostly okay with it. I was pissed when the drug thing to tap into her emotions became little more than to force a relationship. I'd felt 100 percent the same way if it were done to pimp Archer/T'Pol or anyone else she were to be paired off with.

It didn't really bother me because we saw that T'Pol, from the start, was always curious about emotions from episodes like Fusion. Experimenting with a drug, which according to the writers, she was hooked after her first encounter with it in Impulse, didn't really surprise me because it seemed to be in her curious and rebal nature. I think maybe she underestimated how addictive it was and hoped in the beginning that she could control it.

It's possible.

Unfortunately, TIIC decided just to go full-on with the soap opera aspects instead of doing some actual character development. We had so many wasted filler episodes in season three ("North Star" had no purpose whatsoever, nor did "Exiction"(Pardon the spelling) or "Exile" ), where even one episode of T'Pol having to truly deal with the aftermath of that could have made a world of difference.

This idea of using drugs to make her less of a typical Vulcan to promote any romance smacks of bad writing and lack of creativity. T'Pol is already atypically Vulcan enough and so many saw the potential for the couple long before that aspect was introduced. Why throw that in there?

There are actually a number of TnT'ers who aren't happy at all with the books. Some still like the fact that Trip isn't dead, and the fact he's been separated from T'Pol doesn't bother them because they actually like angst. But I myself and most of my online friends agree that the relaunch books aren't really any better than TATV itself - the character assassinations are still present, the "will they/won't they" angst from the last half of S3 and all of S4 is still there, and Trip might as well be dead because he's being forced to live a lie, and away from the people he cares about. And frankly the end of LFM doesn't give any indication that that condition will ever change for him.

Bolding mine.

Gah. That alone has pretty much made me hesitate to read that book. I've been watching soap operas for nine years, and that carrot dangling tactic is one I see too often, and I H A T E. I'll probably read it to see how it all wraps up, though.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Well I have mixed feelings on this one these days.

I always thought that Trip had great chemistry with all the characters and could see pretty much any 'ship working for him including T'Pol - and I even wrote 1 and 1/2 fanfics and participated in a couple of RR fics with the T/T'P 'ship.

But Season 4 made me fall right off the T/T'P 'ship bandwagon. They had T'Pol string Trip along and really treat him badly for a large majority of the season and he took it I really didn't enjoy a whole season of Trip being T'Pol's bitch.

It's just not good for the characters and the characters were what made Ent so enjoyable for me - and frankly I didn't like much of the character stuff for anybody in S4 so it's why, unlike most people around here, I don't class S4 as the best season of Ent.

That's my 0.02c

(Plus T'Pol should be with Malcolm anyway )

 

[KayArr]

She wasn't stringing him along--she had to figure out some things about herself before she could commit to someone else. I thought that the writers did an excellent job having T'pol deal with the fallout of all she'd been through in season 3. They also did an excellent job of having Trip deal with that.

 

[Pensive]

I go both ways on the issue of s4 T'Pol and Trip. Part of me thinks she was trying to understand her situation better and re-examine her life based on the Kir'Shara, so any inconsistency was just a result of that. The other part of me thinks that she was hot and cold with Trip, but since he really loves her he was patient enough to wait for her to come around.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

This idea of using drugs to make her less of a typical Vulcan to promote any romance smacks of bad writing and lack of creativity.

Reading this, I immediately thought of Spock and This Side of Paradise, which I thought was well-told and poignant storytelling. But IMHO, I don't think the goal in either case was to promote romance; I think it was to force each Vulcan's suppressed emotions to the surface and explore the ramifications of that, and romance was one of the consequences.

I always had Sarek and Amanda in the back of my mind when I watched Trip and T'Pol. Something had to ignite that relationship too...some spark that got Sarek to thinking that this young, illogical, wildly emotional human was (of all things!) bondmate material. Just as with Trip and T'Pol, there may have been initial friction, even dislike; personality clashes; miscommunication, though Sarek's ambassadorial training may have lessened that possibility ; awkward signals of affection from one to the other, out of sync, as each struggled with the other's cultural differences.

But how did Sarek come to develop affection for her? Somehow I don't think it was simply "the logical thing to do," as he joked in that episode. Maybe it was pon farr, maybe it was some lowering of his emotional barriers in private with her because he sensed a kindred soul and wanted to explore the possibilities. As T'Les said, Vulcans are sensitive to emotions, even if they may not express them.

There are actually a number of TnT'ers who aren't happy at all with the books. Some still like the fact that Trip isn't dead, and the fact he's been separated from T'Pol doesn't bother them because they actually like angst. But I myself and most of my online friends agree that the relaunch books aren't really any better than TATV itself - the character assassinations are still present, the "will they/won't they" angst from the last half of S3 and all of S4 is still there, and Trip might as well be dead because he's being forced to live a lie, and away from the people he cares about. And frankly the end of LFM doesn't give any indication that that condition will ever change for him.

Bolding mine.

Gah. That alone has pretty much made me hesitate to read that book.

Keep in mind that the poster you quote has not read the book either.

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Spoilers ahead for TGTMD! I'm not using spoiler text because so much has already been given away above.
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I did read The Good That Men Do. Character assassination? Trip "forced" to live a lie? Angst on the level of Season 4? Nope, not in the book I read. Granted, I am a Phloxist, and I have a more optimistic perspective on things. The part I enjoyed the most was the "fix-fic" aspect, wherein the authors did a "re-interpretation" of the Thing (sometimes to hilarious effect) while managing to keep canon intact. Pretty neat trick.

I don't know where the T/T subplot is headed in the Relaunch, but it seems illogical for me to write it off, considering all the clues that were dropped that indicate there is more to come. I'm willing to wait and see where this goes. I'm a "glass half full" kind of gal.

But don't listen to me--read the book and decide for yourself.

 

[Bak_and_Blue]

I always had Sarek and Amanda in the back of my mind when I watched Trip and T'Pol.

YES! Me too. And I was always looking at T&Ts relationship through that filter as well. One of the reasons I was sorry that it could not have been more fully (and more maturely) explored.

 

[Captain X]

Keep in mind that the poster you quote has not read the book either.

Also keep in mind that I heard about the various negative aspects from someone who has read the book, and that a number of people from our community treated him quite baddly when he brought up the inconsistancies and the various other aspects that made TGTMD no better than TATV. After all, there are still plenty of TnT'ers who like the book because Trip's death was undone, and some of them actually like that high school angst of T'Pol constantly telling Trip to "come here/go away", so for them it actually would be a good book.

 

[jgc]

...high school angst of T'Pol constantly telling Trip to "come here/go away", so for them it actually would be a good book.

But, if you'd read the book, you'd see that there isn't any "high school angst" present.

 

[commodore64]

I always had Sarek and Amanda in the back of my mind when I watched Trip and T'Pol.

YES! Me too. And I was always looking at T&Ts relationship through that filter as well. One of the reasons I was sorry that it could not have been more fully (and more maturely) explored.

Boy, I do not see that for a number of reasons. I'm not sure if it's okay, but I sure am interested in why/where you see similarities.