Why I Don't Want to See Shatner Again

[guardian]

His ideas concerning trek 5 in his DVD commentary showed he no affinity for the material or history--he simply felt improved FX would make it a better picture.

Can you give an example? I am honestly asking, as I never heard the commentary (I really need to toss the vids and get the DVDs).
In any case, I felt for all its shortcomings, TFF had some of the best character moments when it came to the "big three". Maybe not the most subtle, but none of them seemed to scream they were written by someone who didn't have an understanding of the characters.

All of that to say I do agree with the fact that at this point, Shatner may overshadow the character of Kirk to a degree and may take viewers out of the new movie. But then I think Nimoy will as well (and ironically it has been him who has stated that Spock was, in a way, part of him). At the same time, Kirk as a character would deserve a more fitting closure than he got, IMHO.

On the commentary, it was pretty clear that he had not seen it in years or refamiliarized himself with it. (Odd, considering that he asked Paramount if he could re-cut it & add new FX)
He didn't acknowledge any flaws other than the FX. He didn't seem to know that lots of folks hate the jokes at the expense of the crew & ship. He didn't seem to realize that most fans want the movies be respectful of the show & not campy humor. I truly think that all the gags with the 'little four' were almost purposefully bad so he could cut them out and have more big 3 screen time. The problem was there was not enough action or even a proper climax to make the jokes expenable. Had all the silly stuff been cut the movie would run about 90 minutes.
He didn't seem like a director who wanted to restore his original vision just spruce it up with modern FX.

 

[idreamedmusic]

^Thank you!

I remember how in his Movie Memories he was saying how much trouble they had to cut it down to an appropriate length, so heh.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I noticed the same thing with Jonathan Frakes once he made the jump to the big screen. On the show he was always so uptight and serious, almost to the point of being grim. Then suddenly he became much more affable. Playing straight man to a drunk Troi, the whole smoother that an androids bottom scene; Overall, he became much more laid back and at ease. To be honest though, I think I actually liked him much better that way. One theory though was that both Shatner and Frakes were double timing it as the directors, and that may have influenced thier overall performances as well. When you have to spend all day bossing around people who for many years have been your peers, you would probably come to the set every day trying to be as pleasent and agreeable as possible.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The thing for me is if his return is organic to the nature of the story (ie alt. timeline/universe) then why not? I think it would add a great deal of nostalgia and hopefully significance to a film that in theory was designed to honor TOS. And I agree with STC that the fanboy in me would relish the chance to see Nimoy/Shatner again. He's aged yes, he's no longer the handsome young captain, but can you imagine that moment at film's end if Nimoy and Shatner were to appear together after all these years and with their history. I just find it hard to imagine anyone who grew up with the series not wanting to see closure to those versions of the charcters with those actors. And then, yes, hopefully Pine/Quinto will take these characters into a whole new era with several sequels in the future. It would be win-win for everyone.

 

[pookha]

as for shatner leaking through with the whimsy, well go back and look that was present with kirk depending on the circumstances.

 

[HoundDog]

I wouldn't mind a short Shatner cameo in a future Trek project. It would be a nice touch.

 

[Zeppster]

The biggest reason Shatner isn't in Star Trek is because he was killed off in Generations. There's no amount of good writing that can get Kirk from dead to about 15 years older, to go back in time and some how talk to his past self for some reason. It would end up being a bad movie. The only way Shatner could be in the movie is as a short cameo as someone else. Which I actually have no problem with.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I have no problem seeing Shatner in the movie as Kirk, so long as it makes sense and fits into the story they are telling. What I am against is the inclusion of Shatner just for the sake of having him there.

 

[ktanner3]

Well, to be fair, Nimoy is a little worn around the edges, too. The most recent versions of Spock he gave us were very different from the Spock of TOS.

I'm sure your personality would change quite a bit over the course of a hundred years too.

I always looked at TOS Kirk vs. movie Kirk like this:

Captain Kirk still had something to prove. He was the youngest Captain in Starfleet, aggressive and bold, but I don't believe he was as confident in his abilities as his outward appearance let on.

Admiral Kirk had two decades of command experience under his belt. He had matured, grown more confident and relaxed, nothing more.

It's like Picard in season one versus Picard in season seven. Who'd have wanted to watch that stuffy, severe jerk for a decade?

So so true. I couldn't stand Picard until around season 3.

Good characters evolve, and good actors and writers find ways to make that happen, whether it's deliberate or just the natural evolution of an actor becoming comfortable in his or her role. And we as the audience gain new perspectives on the characters over time through their adventures, which probably makes them seem even more familiar and comfortable.

QFT. Personally I thought the captain kirk from TOS was too hammy and over the top while the Admiral Kirk from the films was much more believable.I think his character should have stayed put in the undiscovered country and let the new cast stand on their own for generations.I feel the same should be done for the next movie.

 

[Triskelion]

I have no problem seeing Shatner in the movie as Kirk, so long as it makes sense and fits into the story they are telling. What I am against is the inclusion of Shatner just for the sake of having him there.

Just don't pull any of that funny business like they did with Frakes and Sirtis in the final episode of Enterprise! You know, when they were asked to portray their characters from a decade ago. Not pretty!

And the thing is, that would have been easy, very easy to fix, by allowing those two characters to have aged yet revisiting Will's Pegasus mission in another way, for example, by putting him on a civil trial after the news was declassified, or something like that. Come on, anything but squeezing into his prom night spandex suit!!!!

[Of course, Marina will always be hot even when a "woman of a certain age"].

 

[Tiberius1701]

If Shatner wants to read the phone book in Star Trek XII, he's earned the right.

Perhaps, but no one has the right to the money in my wallet.

 

[Tiberius1701]

I'm sure your personality would change quite a bit over the course of a hundred years too.

I always looked at TOS Kirk vs. movie Kirk like this:

Captain Kirk still had something to prove. He was the youngest Captain in Starfleet, aggressive and bold, but I don't believe he was as confident in his abilities as his outward appearance let on.

Admiral Kirk had two decades of command experience under his belt. He had matured, grown more confident and relaxed, nothing more...

That's a good way to rationalize it - and I have no problem with rationalizations or 'treksplanations'. These are fun to do with the canon issues too. But ultimately, that's just what they are - not a planned 'maturing of the character' but a rationalization of what is really just a loss of memory or concern on how to play the character.

In any case, the issue isn't how or why it's there - the issue is that Kirk is cool, Shatner is not. If he's going to be prancing across the screen making lackadaisical puns then I'd prefer not. That's my point, and just my opinion of course

 

[Tiberius1701]

I noticed the same thing with Jonathan Frakes once he made the jump to the big screen... One theory though was that both Shatner and Frakes were double timing it as the directors, and that may have influenced thier overall performances as well...

Agreed. I know my own work is better when I have someone driving me to do 'just a little more' to make it better. Directing themselves, the work suffers I think. Having co-workers direct them also presents some ego issues that prevent pure direction from being given frankly and/or from being taken humbly.

 

[Tiberius1701]

as for shatner leaking through with the whimsy, well go back and look that was present with kirk depending on the circumstances.

Not to that degree, and even the most whimsical Kirk in The Trouble with Tribbles isn't quite the same as 'Shatner in a uniform' we have now.

Furthermore, although I agree there were some 'glimmers of kirk' in V and especially VI, four whole films is a pretty long "circumstance".

 

[Tiberius1701]

...The only way Shatner could be in the movie is as a short cameo as someone else. Which I actually have no problem with.

I'd be ok with him playing Kirk's father or something. Or, it would even be neat to see a picture of him from around the II-III era as the older Kirk on old-Spock's wall or something.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

I'm sure your personality would change quite a bit over the course of a hundred years too.

I always looked at TOS Kirk vs. movie Kirk like this:

Captain Kirk still had something to prove. He was the youngest Captain in Starfleet, aggressive and bold, but I don't believe he was as confident in his abilities as his outward appearance let on.

Admiral Kirk had two decades of command experience under his belt. He had matured, grown more confident and relaxed, nothing more...

That's a good way to rationalize it - and I have no problem with rationalizations or 'treksplanations'. These are fun to do with the canon issues too. But ultimately, that's just what they are - not a planned 'maturing of the character' but a rationalization of what is really just a loss of memory or concern on how to play the character.

In any case, the issue isn't how or why it's there - the issue is that Kirk is cool, Shatner is not. If he's going to be prancing across the screen making lackadaisical puns then I'd prefer not. That's my point, and just my opinion of course

Just wanted to point out that the quoted words belong to FordSVT, not me.

I've noticed that it's sometimes harder to clearly quote people since the changeover to vBulletin.

(EDIT: An error I seem to have compounded with this post)

 

[PKTrekGirl]

If Shatner wants to read the phone book in Star Trek XII, he's earned the right.

Perhaps, but no one has the right to the money in my wallet.

I'm sure your personality would change quite a bit over the course of a hundred years too.

I always looked at TOS Kirk vs. movie Kirk like this:

Captain Kirk still had something to prove. He was the youngest Captain in Starfleet, aggressive and bold, but I don't believe he was as confident in his abilities as his outward appearance let on.

Admiral Kirk had two decades of command experience under his belt. He had matured, grown more confident and relaxed, nothing more...

That's a good way to rationalize it - and I have no problem with rationalizations or 'treksplanations'. These are fun to do with the canon issues too. But ultimately, that's just what they are - not a planned 'maturing of the character' but a rationalization of what is really just a loss of memory or concern on how to play the character.

In any case, the issue isn't how or why it's there - the issue is that Kirk is cool, Shatner is not. If he's going to be prancing across the screen making lackadaisical puns then I'd prefer not. That's my point, and just my opinion of course

I noticed the same thing with Jonathan Frakes once he made the jump to the big screen... One theory though was that both Shatner and Frakes were double timing it as the directors, and that may have influenced thier overall performances as well...

Agreed. I know my own work is better when I have someone driving me to do 'just a little more' to make it better. Directing themselves, the work suffers I think. Having co-workers direct them also presents some ego issues that prevent pure direction from being given frankly and/or from being taken humbly.

as for shatner leaking through with the whimsy, well go back and look that was present with kirk depending on the circumstances.

Not to that degree, and even the most whimsical Kirk in The Trouble with Tribbles isn't quite the same as 'Shatner in a uniform' we have now.

Furthermore, although I agree there were some 'glimmers of kirk' in V and especially VI, four whole films is a pretty long "circumstance".

...The only way Shatner could be in the movie is as a short cameo as someone else. Which I actually have no problem with.

I'd be ok with him playing Kirk's father or something. Or, it would even be neat to see a picture of him from around the II-III era as the older Kirk on old-Spock's wall or something.

Tiberius1701, please do not post multiple posts in a row like this again - it's considered spamming on this board. Two in a row is okay....three is stretching it and should only be done in extreme circumstances, but more than that is just plain spamming.

On this new board, we have a multi-quote function. In fact, I have used it here. Check it out - it might save you from a warning in future!

 

[M'Sharak]

I've noticed that it's sometimes harder to clearly quote people since the changeover to vBulletin.

(EDIT: An error I seem to have compounded with this post)

Looking at PKTrekGirl's post, immediately following, you appear not to be alone.

It still works basically the same way as it always did: just make sure the number of Close Quote tags and Open Quote ones are equal, and you're golden. When in doubt, use Preview.

 

[Samuel T. Cogley]

It still works basically the same way as it always did: just make sure the number of Close Quote tags and Open Quote ones are equal, and you're golden. When in doubt, use Preview.

Yeah, I know how it works.

It just seems more misleading than it did in the past when someone gets it wrong.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I've noticed that it's sometimes harder to clearly quote people since the changeover to vBulletin.

(EDIT: An error I seem to have compounded with this post)

Looking at PKTrekGirl's post, immediately following, you appear not to be alone.

It still works basically the same way as it always did: just make sure the number of Close Quote tags and Open Quote ones are equal, and you're golden. When in doubt, use Preview.

Well, I just used the multi-quote function. I did NOTHING else to edit who said what.

So therefore, I can only conclude that it is a VBulletin quirk.

Nevertheless, I think my friendly still is pretty clear...which was, after all, the point.