Spoilers The Controversial Star Wars Opinion Thread

[Skywalker]

I'm tired of Jedi vs Sith.

I'd rather see a future Star Wars Universe where the Grey Jedi finally take over & dominate the discussion and not make it so polarizing as the dogmatic Jedi or the power hungry Authoritarian Sith.

It's time to let the Old Jedi & Sith concepts stay buried now that the "New Republic" era is over and "The First Order" is done.

Moving forward in time, Force users are more independent and not limited by Light Saber color, or affiliation to the Light/Dark side.

People can be more nuanced, complex, use both sides powers.

More of a world of Marvel like X-men Mutants & people with Super Powers.

Less Good vs Evil Force Factions.

Create a more dynamic multi-faction Star Wars Universe that is more nuanced.

More science, less mysticism.

More logic, less mumbo jumbo.

What you want is for Star Wars to stop being Star Wars.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What you want is for Star Wars to stop being Star Wars.

As long as Force Powered Users & characters & Species from the Star Wars canonical lore are part of it.

Then they fight and have wars, I don't see the issue.

Something radically different then the existing paradigm of Jedi vs Sith.

Hell, the Yuuzhan Vong were IMO generally a interesting change of pace IMO to break up the same monotnous "Jedi vs Sith" paradigm.

Or The Mandalorian before it involved Force Users.

There's ALOT more to the Star Wars Universe than the "Sky Walker Saga".

There are plenty of other characters, people who aren't related to the whole Multi Millenia Jedi vs Sith power struggle.

We can use some of that.

There are so many species you can delve into, so many factions, etc.

None that have ANYTHING to do with Jedi vs Sith.

Let them stay dead.

 

[Skywalker]

There's already tons of Star Wars content out there about people who aren't involved in the Skywalker saga. You should check some of them out.

In the meantime, everything you're complaining about is Star Wars. Take it away and you take away the things that make it special.

 

[Tuskin38]

It goes beyond that.

When the concept of a Grey Jedi first appeared in legends, it only meant a Jedi not following the Jedi Council. It had nothing to do with balancing both the light and dark.

It was used to refer to Jolee Bindo in KOTOR 1 in 2003. And in a comic released in 2001 a Jedi uses the term to describe Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

[Tuskin38]

Fair enough, but it was part of his "Original Concept" since the beginnings of Star Wars.

No it wasn't. We've already went over this in this sub forum.
There's no evidence of this.

The line in the making of Star Wars mentioning it was a revision requested by George decades later according to the author of the book.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And what are you going to do, now that the Jedi & Sith storylines have been played out and both factions are more or less gone?

You're making the argument that a SW universe needs to continue as productions, when it--like any creation--has a finite life as determined by its original purpose. In other words, pushing corporate interests aside, why is it necessary for a fictional universe to go on and on and on--again beyond its original purpose / message (which is what you're arguing), when it only becomes some generic space concept like any other?
At the heart of this discussion is the removal the spiritual / religious foundation of Star Wars (again, what you are calling for) turns it into the aforementioned generic space concept, and you can find that in other, non-SW related productions.

In the meantime, everything you're complaining about is Star Wars. Take it away and you take away the things that make it special.

Exactly.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

When the concept of a Grey Jedi first appeared in legends, it only meant a Jedi not following the Jedi Council. It had nothing to do with balancing both the light and dark.

It was used to refer to Jolee Bindo in KOTOR 1 in 2003. And in a comic released in 2001 a Jedi uses the term to describe Qui-Gon Jinn.

Yes, but that was then, now it means something different.

---

No it wasn't. We've already went over this in this sub forum.
There's no evidence of this.

The line in the making of Star Wars mentioning it was a revision requested by George decades later according to the author of the book.

Regardless of when it got published in "Print", LucasFilms themselves maintains that the concept has been around since 1977.
They own the IP and alot of their older staff knew George Lucas himself since the foundation of LucasFilm.

Midi-chlorian

Midi-chlorians were microscopic, intelligent life forms that originated from the foundation of life in the center of the galaxy and ultimately resided within the cells of all living organisms, thereby forming a symbiotic relationship with their hosts. The Force spoke through the midi-chlorians...

starwars.fandom.com

Lucasfilm maintains that midi-chlorians were first conceived by George Lucas as early as 1977. However, there is no evidence of this before the publication of The Making of Star Wars in 2007; the book's author, Jonathan W. Rinzler, said that Lucas added the passage about midi-chlorians in the run-up to the book's publication.[20] Lucas incorporated the explanation of midi-chlorians into the film as part of Anakin Skywalker's journey towards understanding the Force.[21] When discussing the story treatment for 1983's Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi in 1981 (then titled Revenge of the Jedi), and in particular the backstory for Anakin (who had been revealed to be Darth Vader), Lucas implied that the precepts of being a Jedi could be practiced by "anyone" when comparing it to yoga or karate.[22] As recorded in Star Wars: The Making of Episode I The Phantom Menace, the midi-chlorians were incorporated into the film's story in the second screenplay draft, finished around 1995.[23] In the interview given to Paul Duncan, author of the Star Wars Archives books, Lucas confirmed that "everyone has the Force", since every single living organism has midi-chlorians inside their cells. Despite this, according to Lucas, only those with enough midi-chlorians in their body could "have a certain amount of control over our Personal Force and learn how to use it, like the Buddhist practice of being able to walk on hot coals."

I'm willing to go with the IP owners on this aspect of the lore. I obviously wasn't alive when they concieved & made Star Wars & released it initially. There are others who were around George Lucas at that time who knew him personally and was part of the original production.

---

You're making the argument that a SW universe needs to continue as productions, when it--like any creation--has a finite life as determined by its original purpose. In other words, pushing corporate interests aside, why is it necessary for a fictional universe to go on and on and on--again beyond its original purpose / message (which is what you're arguing), when it only becomes some generic space concept like any other?
At the heart of this discussion is the removal the spiritual / religious foundation of Star Wars (again, what you are calling for) turns it into the aforementioned generic space concept, and you can find that in other, non-SW related productions.

As long as fans want more Star Wars content and are willing to pay for it, why not give it to them?

Your argument is that you're afraid of Star Wars changing to be "Generic".
But how could it when it's intricate grand universe with all it's back story and lore still exist and you build off the foundation of it?
Was the original EU Novels published before Episodes 1-3 stuff that made Star Wars "Generic"?
Why are you so afraid of Star Wars evolving past existing Spiritual / Religious foundation of Star Wars?

You do know that there are more ways to look at Spirituality beyond the existing (Jedi vs Sith) paradigm.
IRL, there are ALOT of religions outside of the big mainstream ones, and you can take a look at them.
Try to be open minded about it.

Alot of the basis of Star Wars "The Force" comes from Buddhist philosophies, the modern Gray Jedi concepts are far closer to the foundations of Buddhism than to the existing (Jedi vs Sith) paradigm which is closer to Abrahamic Religions as a foundation of story telling.

 

[Ceridwen]

Ok, here's my really unpopular Star Wars opinion.

I love that Darth Sidious came back in The Rise of Skywalker, I think it has exactly as much explanation as it needs, and the fact that he does so on as a mechanized zmobie on a Sith GRAVE PLANET is wonderfully Heavy Metal.

It sparks joy.

 

[fireproof78]

Ok, here's my really unpopular Star Wars opinion.

I love that Darth Sidious came back in The Rise of Skywalker, I think it has exactly as much explanation as it needs, and the fact that he does so on as a mechanized zmobie on a Sith GRAVE PLANET is wonderfully Heavy Metal.

It sparks joy.

My only regret is I only have one like to give.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

As long as fans want more Star Wars content and are willing to pay for it, why not give it to them?

Overproducing content with no purpose to the core of the concept (which is what you're asking for) is just generating crap, and historically, the longer any franchise is milked in that way, the product's artistic and financial value fades.

Your argument is that you're afraid of Star Wars changing to be "Generic".
But how could it when it's intricate grand universe with all it's back story and lore still exist and you build off the foundation of it?

You are arguing against its true foundation: a galaxy shaped by the religious / spiritual will of the Force and its practitioners. Get rid of that--as you desire--and you might as well watch Buck Rogers in the 25h Century or Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Was the original EU Novels published before Episodes 1-3 stuff that made Star Wars "Generic"?

I'm talking about the main purpose of Star Wars as a property: live action films, not the ancillary market of novels, comics, etc., that the majority of SW fans and average moviegoers who know about SW did not / do not care about, or consider part of the film story.

Why are you so afraid of Star Wars evolving past existing Spiritual / Religious foundation of Star Wars?

There's no fear. I acknowledge why Star Wars exists, why it focused on a Man of Destiny (Luke) born from the realm of the galaxy-shaping religious / spiritual power and order, setting him up as the only being in an entire galaxy capable of taking on the Empire and its greatest weapon (when the Rebellion could not without him).

You do know that there are more ways to look at Spirituality beyond the existing (Jedi vs Sith) paradigm.

That's not your argument. It was you who said:

More science, less mysticism.

More logic, less mumbo jumbo.

Those are firm positions against the very heart--the religious heart of the Star Wars concept, not some desire to see other forms of spirituality / religion explored in the concept.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

And what about that fleet that came out of nowhere? Like WTF?

Force teleportation also WTF?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Overproducing content with no purpose to the core of the concept (which is what you're asking for) is just generating crap, and historically, the longer any franchise is milked in that way, the product's artistic and financial value fades.

Who said anything about "Over Producing". I'm talking about making "Quality Content". Not filler or crap.

You are arguing against its true foundation: a galaxy shaped by the religious / spiritual will of the Force and its practitioners. Get rid of that--as you desire--and you might as well watch Buck Rogers in the 25h Century or Star Trek: The Next Generation.

The Classic Jedi Order is dead. Palpatine is dead AGAIN!. His remnant forces are gone. Rei is pretty much the last powerful force user.
There is no more Jedi vs Sith wars, it's a "Clean Slate" as far as the main timeline is concerned.

Do you intend on returning to the old ways, or starting something new & more interesting?

Cause there's been countless millenia of Jedi vs Sith that has brought alot of devastation & hardship to the entire Star Wars Galaxy.

I'm talking about the main purpose of Star Wars as a property: live action films, not the ancillary market of novels, comics, etc., that the majority of SW fans and average moviegoers who know about SW did not / do not care about, or consider part of the film story.

So you don't consider all the other content to be part of the major Star Wars Universe / Canon?
What about:
"The Mandalorian"
"The Book of Boba Fett"
"Ahsoka"
"Star Wars: Skeleton Crew"
"Obi-Wan Kenobi"
"Star Wars: Andor"
"Star Wars: The Acolyte"
"Star Wars: The Clone Wars Animated TV series"
"Star Wars: Rebels"
"Star Wars: The Bad Batch"
"Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi"

There's no fear. I acknowledge why Star Wars exists, why it focused on a Man of Destiny (Luke) born from the realm of the galaxy-shaping religious / spiritual power and order, setting him up as the only being in an entire galaxy capable of taking on the Empire and its greatest weapon (when the Rebellion could not without him).

That's great, the story's over, Episodes 1-9 have been told.
Let's move onto new territory, new stories.

That's not your argument. It was you who said:

Those are firm positions against the very heart--the religious heart of the Star Wars concept, not some desire to see other forms of spirituality / religion explored in the concept.

Those aren't mutually exclusive.
The Gray Jedi in it's current concept is one that some other Star Wars fans & I gravitate to.
One that breaks the current paradigm between Jedi & Sith.
Something that can change moving forward.

It was George Lucas himself that authorized the introduction of Midi-Chlorians and it's here to stay.

Why can't we explore both the Scientific Aspect & Other Non Jedi/Sith spiritual ways.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yes, but that was then, now it means something different.

Not in canon. So far that concept has not come back.

 

[Tuskin38]

And what about that fleet that came out of nowhere? Like WTF?

It wasn't out of nowhere, it was explained.

 

[The Wormhole]

the Yuuzhan Vong were IMO generally a interesting change of pace IMO to break up the same monotnous "Jedi vs Sith" paradigm.

You're the first person I've heard speak positively about the Yuuzhan Vong.

Or The Mandalorian before it involved Force Users.

A Force user was introduced at the end of the first episode, though it wouldn't be until the second before we saw him actually use the Force.

Was the original EU Novels published before Episodes 1-3 stuff that made Star Wars "Generic"?

Isn't one of the most common criticisms about many of those novels that they are basically generic military science fiction stories with Star Wars stamped on the cover?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Not in canon. So far that concept has not come back.

Not according to Wookipedia's article on Gray Jedi

The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings.

First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side,
and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the structures of the Jedi Code.
However, those who were considered true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition.
One example was Jolee Bindo, a former Jedi Padawan and a Gray Jedi that served the Old Republic.
Although the term did not directly refer to those who were capable of using both light- and dark-side Force abilities, some Gray Jedi could do so. Like "Dark Jedi," the term could refer to any Force user, not only to Jedi.

---

You're the first person I've heard speak positively about the Yuuzhan Vong.

I guess I take a different view on it since I'm more into a Multi Faction / Polity world like in Star Trek.

The Yuu-zhan Vong were generally very different compared to everything that has happened before, it was a true revolution in terms of world changing events.

It wasn't a simple classic re-hash of "The Heroe's Journey" that we've all seen with the original trilogy.

I want there to be MANY factions, not just the two (Jedi vs Sith), we can easily do that in a post Episode 9 universe with new generation of Force Users & political entities around the galaxy.

A Force user was introduced at the end of the first episode, though it wouldn't be until the second before we saw him actually use the Force.

But the vast majority of "The Mandalorian" still was more about non-Force users and their journeys & stories which I liked alot more.

Isn't one of the most common criticisms about many of those novels that they are basically generic military science fiction stories with Star Wars stamped on the cover?

Depends on whom you ask, everybody has different tastes.
Star Wars is the only Universe who has "The Force", how you use it is up to the writers.

But the old paradigm of (Jedi vs Sith) has been done for so long, that it's kind of stale.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Who said anything about "Over Producing". I'm talking about making "Quality Content". Not filler or crap.

As previously stated, historically, the longer any franchise is milked in that way, the product's artistic and financial value fades. Its already happened with Star Wars, yet you think there's some deep well of great material yet to be accessed. That ship sailed.

Do you intend on returning to the old ways, or starting something new & more interesting?

Generic characters in equally generic plots just so happened to be dressed in Star Wars clothing is not only not Star Wars. Its not great Star Wars.

Cause there's been countless millenia of Jedi vs Sith that has brought alot of devastation & hardship to the entire Star Wars Galaxy.

^ You're circling back to your original, negative position:

More science, less mysticism.

More logic, less mumbo jumbo.

You are not looking for nuance, since you write off the core of the franchise--the religious / spiritual story--as "mumbo jumbo"

So you don't consider all the other content to be part of the major Star Wars Universe / Canon?

Notice how you completely misread what I will re-post here:

"I'm talking about the main purpose of Star Wars as a property: live action films, not the ancillary market of novels, comics, etc., that the majority of SW fans and average moviegoers who know about SW did not / do not care about, or consider part of the film story."

You were the one who referenced novels, and I responded.

Regarding D+ series, in all honesty, shows like The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett were not core to the SW concept; at its inspirational heart it--like members of this group's appearance in the cartoons--was more fan pandering originally set in motion by Lucas the second he introduced Jango Fett into the PT. Milking what was once a great, single-purpose character with an air of mystery in TESB / ROTJ, and responding to the worst of fan obsessions.

Episodes 1-9 have been told.

That was the purpose of Star Wars. Its not most superhero comic book publishers, where endless stories--unrelated or not--are constantly churned out on the conveyor belt of worn out content.

It was George Lucas himself that authorized the introduction of Midi-Chlorians and it's here to stay.

Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, and as proven by Disney's handling of the franchise, there are innumerable things that have been produced, or altered which Lucas probably would not agree with. Midichlorians could vanish at any time.

Why can't we explore both the Scientific Aspect & Other Non Jedi/Sith spiritual ways.

Star Wars is not Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

As previously stated, historically, the longer any franchise is milked in that way, the product's artistic and financial value fades. Its already happened with Star Wars, yet you think there's some deep well of great material yet to be accessed. That ship sailed.

I guess you're not into the expanded lore and other EU stuff.

Generic characters in equally generic plots just so happened to be dressed in Star Wars clothing is not only not Star Wars. Its not great Star Wars.

That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But I'll have to agree to disagree.

^ You're circling back to your original, negative position:

Yeah, it's been done in expanded content and there's ALOT of it.

You are not looking for nuance, since you write off the core of the franchise--the religious / spiritual story--as "mumbo jumbo"

I guess not all of us see the original works in the same lens as you do.

Notice how you completely misread what I will re-post here:

"I'm talking about the main purpose of Star Wars as a property: live action films, not the ancillary market of novels, comics, etc., that the majority of SW fans and average moviegoers who know about SW did not / do not care about, or consider part of the film story."

I guess I'm not part of that crowd, I care ALOT about the expanded Universe and deepening the content beyond "The 3x Trilogies".

You were the one who referenced novels, and I responded.

Regarding D+ series, in all honesty, shows like The Mandalorian and The Book of Boba Fett were not core to the SW concept; at its inspirational heart it--like members of this group's appearance in the cartoons--was more fan pandering originally set in motion by Lucas the second he introduced Jango Fett into the PT. Milking what was once a great, single-purpose character with an air of mystery in TESB / ROTJ, and responding to the worst of fan obsessions.

I just happen to be part of the fan base who likes the expanded content, so consider me "Pandered to".

That was the purpose of Star Wars. Its not most superhero comic book publishers, where endless stories--unrelated or not--are constantly churned out on the conveyor belt of worn out content.

Before there were Prequel Trilogies & Sequel Trilogies, there was a ton of EU content, and ALOT of Star Wars fans really enjoyed that content.
I guess you don't particularly like the EU content.

Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, and as proven by Disney's handling of the franchise, there are innumerable things that have been produced, or altered which Lucas probably would not agree with. Midichlorians could vanish at any time.

Yet it hasn't after all these years.

Star Wars is not Star Trek: The Next Generation.

But imagine if it could start merging & have cross-overs.
Wouldn't that be fascinating.

Franchises colliding, the two most legendary Star <Franchises> meeting & crossing over.
The adventures you can have, the stories you can tell.

 

[fireproof78]

imagine if it could start merging & have cross-overs.
Wouldn't that be fascinating.

No.

It would be fan service of the worst kind.

 

[Campe]

Two things:

• The use of midichlorians is not as prevalent in the new canon. There’s an occasional mention of an M-Count, particularly in The Bad Batch.
• “Grey Jedi” are a Legends thing only. As stated in the Wookiepedia article. There’s no corresponding canon entry.

This comes from someone who typically can’t be forced to care about canon.

Edited for clarity.