Yeap, Capaldi was great as the doctor, and in my view his take on the role fits in perfectly with the classic style of the original shows doctors from Hartnell to McGann.
Spoilers Joy to the World grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
I don't know if I find Capaldi the best actor to portray the Doctor, but to me he is the best Doctor. I absolutely love the trajectory of one of the coldest Doctors winding up the kindest and selfless of incarnations. Personally, I'd prefer to travel with him vs Tennant or Smith. Both of those Doctors might be more energetic and fun... til they get sad and wind up blowing up a star system.
I've been seriously thinking of a 11 & 12th Doctor rewatch to better contrast the eras, along with being able to watch it all at my own pace and not have to wait long periods of time between series.
I honestly think Capaldi could dethrone Matt Smith as my favorite Modern Doctor in a rewatch (no one is beating 6 as my favorite overall). But, I think that Smith had more consistently good to great stories and a better supporting cast overall, which probably keeps him in the top spot by a slim margin.
I honestly think Capaldi could dethrone Matt Smith as my favorite Modern Doctor in a rewatch (no one is beating 6 as my favorite overall). But, I think that Smith had more consistently good to great stories and a better supporting cast overall, which probably keeps him in the top spot by a slim margin.
Matt Smith with the Ponds is near peak new DW. The stories were more often good than bad for that era.
I think Matt really hit the ground running. An almost unknown actor, following someone who’d became a national treasure and who was given a heart-tugging exit, he immediately owned the role. And as has been said, he got great stories from the outset (IMHO Eleventh Hour is the best debut story for any Doctor).
Peter C probably came into the role with greater credibility and CV than any actor to play the full time part (Hurt is ahead but that was a one-off, so IMHO only Eccleston came to the role with a comparable level of clout). However, I think that Moffat didn’t quite know what to do with him for that first season (remember the “am I a good man?” stuff) and he didn’t initially realise his full potential. I’ve always felt that Moffat then began to write him more like Eleven and just let Peter do his own thing, at which point he immediately began to make the role his own.
By the time of his final season, with him hitting his groove and Moffat’s writing reinvigorated (though obviously there had already been some bangers like Heaven Sent), I think he was as good as anyone in the part.
Peter C probably came into the role with greater credibility and CV than any actor to play the full time part (Hurt is ahead but that was a one-off, so IMHO only Eccleston came to the role with a comparable level of clout). However, I think that Moffat didn’t quite know what to do with him for that first season (remember the “am I a good man?” stuff) and he didn’t initially realise his full potential. I’ve always felt that Moffat then began to write him more like Eleven and just let Peter do his own thing, at which point he immediately began to make the role his own.
By the time of his final season, with him hitting his groove and Moffat’s writing reinvigorated (though obviously there had already been some bangers like Heaven Sent), I think he was as good as anyone in the part.
Again personally, but I really rather we had Capaldi for the Chibnall years. They wouldn't have been great of course but they likely would've been at least reasonably better on the part of the Doctor, with Capaldi perhaps pushing for his Doctor to be consistent to what Moffat set up for him. But in any case, it would've made those seasons bearable, which they aren't on their own, I'm afraid.
Matt went off the rails with that convoluted plot with Jenna Coleman. It's like let's make City of Death unnecessarily complicated for new DW. So for me, Matt peaked with the Ponds, and Doctor Who overall started going downhill with Coleman. Since then, it's been one off good episodes with more bad than good despite the production values going through the roof with Disney. I would say the Flux is probably the worse story for new Who.
I did find it a little strange that the possibility of her becoming a companion was never even brought up. He spent so much time with her, and got so close to her you'd think it would have crossed his mind to at least try to invite her to come with him once he was done waiting to back to The Time Hotel.
It really is rather disappointing the first female Doctor ended up with two of the series weakest seasons, because it's probably going to turn people off from the idea of female Doctors, even though the quality of the episode had nothing to do with the fact she was woman.
I'm glad we did get a Black and gay Doctor now, so at least they didn't panic and just going back to another straight white guy.
For me it felt right for him not to invite her to come with him, and I think that's because he's her companion. He went to her world and had hotel adventures with her, making her feel less lonely, and pulling her into his world would be weird. Getting her a sci-fi hotel job where she won't be lonely is a compromise they're both comfortable with.
He’s like a cautionary tale. As a literally the face of ‘fandom thinking it knows better’ from the Eighties, he then managed to out-JNT JNT. A whole trailer of ‘look at the ‘slebs we’ve got this year!’ the most crowded regular Tardis crew since Nyssa lost her skirt, and a Doctor in possibly the most BBC kids show costume since someone stitched together some left overs from the Blue Peter fabric box and called the job a good ‘un for the Twin Dilemma.
Missy literally managed more of being a female Doctor in her last episodes, on costume design and characterisation alone. Despite being the Master.
Mind you.
I’d still take Jodie and Chibbers back over this season just past. Though I say that having skipped totally over most of their first season, and accepting that it has some of the worst dialogue ever seen in Who. In fact the worst dialogue in terms of how unrelenting and regularly bad it was.
I'm happy that DW made DT famous, but I feel like he's in everything now
What's a "sleb"?
Six's outfit still looks great. Looked better on McCoy, but it is more conceptually alien than any outfit preceding it.
Jo Martin was far more Doctorish and also was the Doctor, without the silly "I've turned good thanks to my companions Exposition and Eyecandy" or whatever the song and dance was.
Series 11 was very uneven, some props for avoiding monster reuse and trying to create new ones though.
Series 12 was a vast improvement. Not sure we needed yet another Gallifrey/origins story, but incarnations prior to Hartnell was floated back in the 70s during Tom Baker's run and brought up seriously by JNT in 1983 interview, never mind there's no reason the Doctor can't change any attributes during a regeneration process. Plus, despite not being a full-time incarnation, we got Jo Martin's interpretation - a true breath of fresh air for the chess angle, not seen since McCoy but previous incarnations did the "I beg you don't use it" trope. Would loved a proper era with Jo, but alas... at least there's an audio range and I hope the scripts will be good!
More on regeneration, the Rani was able to control her regeneration, so was Romana, and RTD's inclusion of "24 hours" ("The Christmas Invasion") neatly addresses not just regrowing severed hands but also ability to change looks without giving up another count in the regeneration cycle. Tennant using a cycle but not changing works but is so cheesy and hammy with the dialogue.
Whatever stumbles he did do for Jodie, who did and still does have a fairly sizable fanbase by the time Chibnall left, so he didn't get everything wrong, and he did include a second incarnation with Jo Martin - whose presence and scripted material readily prove Chibnall wasn't always having a handle, as well as reaching out to wider audiences and to dispel the notion that a woman can't be the Doctor. The fact that RTD2's ratings have been lower is far more worrisome, if ratings were deemed an issue for Chibnall's run. At least the Xmas special got a boost in ratings figures, despite the negative reviews.
‘Sleb’ = ‘celebrity’. So to take Chibnall back in time, imagine a trailer with Ken Dodd, Richard Briers, Kate O’Mara et al all not in costume grinning and waving at the camera, like a weird opening to Blankety Blank.
I don’t have much against Colin’s costume (it looked great in the comics) but there is no denying it was very much a *costume* and very of its time. (which came in with JNT and the redesigned look for Tom)
Jo *was* more Doctorish (ignoring my dislike of the whole TC thing, not to mention having her as part of some Gallifreyan Suicide Squad cum A-Team) in her ten or so minutes of screen time. But that just draws attention to how messed up the approach with Jodie was. Especially in her weird costume, and even the weird way by which she appropriated it. I think even if they had kept it the same but made better (and more expensive) fabric choices it would just have worked better. The default ‘Edwardian’ look is always a good starting point when setting up a Doctor outfit, and she would have benefit from that. She should have looked like dressing similar to Romana from Who, not Romana from Blue Peter. Wrong time period. Which is why Missy with her Mary Poppins get up worked so much better *visually* as a ‘Doctor’.
At this point, Ncuti has been pictured in more skirts mind you, so the design choices haven’t improved much… top tip future Who costumers, Alan Cumming and Jonathan Ross should stay off the mood board.
Chibnall’s Who was more eighties than the eighties, oddly. Guess that’s on trend for when it aired though. And the actors were often struggling through production choices — whether costumes, or Ryan being asked to use a northern accent that affected the actors ability and range, when Graham and Grace had no such thing asked of them.
It’s a lot of stuff that has bled through into RTD2, though arguably also started with him. (One of the reasons for Smiths success I would suspect is down to him *looking like the Doctor again* which also occasionally happens with Ncuti. Apparently mainly when it’s a Moffat penned episode, weirdly.) Moffat seems to relish working with ‘Doctor Who’ whereas RTD and Chibnall on occasion seem to be embarrassed about it. Which is odd, because Moffat is more vocally self-effacing about an embarrassment over Who and his fandom, which then doesn’t show in his work at all.
I think Moff is the new Terrance Dicks, and can’t work out if RTD and Chib are both the new JNT. For some reason Chibs was aiming to out-Cartmel Cartmel, and really didn’t land it no matter how much he ripped off. Gatiss probably would have been the new Hinchcliffe, and Roberts was aiming at being the Adams of the bunch.
Thanks! I'm not the greatest with slang at times...
GAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
Yup, that's bad. (Looks like I don't need any sleep tonight, that's for sure... wake up with nightmares. If anything, I'll pop in "The Brothers" or "Dynasty" and see Kate evil it up a tad. Even "The Mark of the Rani", where she has no OTT scenes and plays it all absolutely straight, will be a relief...)
Unintentional camp is always better than intentional, some shows date and are perceived as camp when it wasn't intentional, but the intentional stuff can be horrendous right out of the gate. Still can't believe that, for example, the SIlver Nemesis special edition, for all its strengths, opted to use a different take for the final scene by McCoy turning to the camera and winking -- I'd otherwise say that's a RTDism or Moffatism with the overt 4th wall stuff, except that happened decades ago and it was one of the alternate takes that never saw the light of day. Not that it's hard to understand why.
If not a trendsetter, since the late-80s out-coated Colin's coat very quickly.
IMHO, TTC ≠ regeneration ID. All TTD does is to identify a reason for the various non-numbered incarnations, starting with the Morbius number as shown in the mortal game in the story's climax, for which Hinchcliffe admitted were the Doctor's incarnations (but then ignored in the 80s, thank Mawdryn for that.) Remove TTC and all the various incarnations still exist, leaving a mystery that needed a rewrite.
Jo was so refreshing to see on screen. Definitely brought an assertive authority presence long missing from the show. The Doctor can be any personality, but fans seem to gravitate toward certain mannerisms more and I dig the authority stuff. Even in rewatching Pertwee of recent thanks to the Classic YT channel, his era is sometimes underrated for sure.
Some of Jo's scenes were echos of McCoy, but whereas Sylvester's was goading Davros into blowing up his home planet, Jo's was doing something not dissimilar with a weapon and the story and situation leading to it felt original enough, there are only so many tropes (combining them to make something feel original is key), I loved the use of the Judoon in this story, and Jo simply acted it all out of the park, she was awesome. Being a fan of classic Who, the number of times the original seven incarnations wielded, created, or otherwise used weapons is high enough that it doesn't feel like a shock - apart from when 13 says "The real Doctor doesn't use guns", which is BS but it's due to past history/memories being unreachable... probably, since - in the past - classic Doctors did remember what their predecessors had done.
Exactly. Jo upstaged Jodie. Whether Jodie's era began with lack of focus or vision, which didn't help because when she couldn't control the TARDIS she could, etc, Jo's entry and backdrop are far more pinpoint and consistent.
I adore that costume!!
Edwardian-style coat is always a Doctory thing for me, some shakeups and changes are inevitable needed (prevents overuse), but the use of color is loosely reminiscent of Six and with more nuanced style and panache. The patterning is also as gorgeous. It's artistic and perfect. A shame the spectacles weren't included in the action figure release as they're just as iconic as they are rare (only 1, 5, and 13 wore them and only part of the time. Include 7 for that one location work bit on a motorbike for long shots, but he wasn't supposed to be wearing them except he had to, and no stuntman did the bike work...)That makes sense, esp. Missy. I still do like the more tailored look Jo got. Now I'm imagining one-off stories where she does change into something else. But her main outfit is so iconic.
Whatever the behind the scenes reasons, the Doctor has always put on whatever seemed to work, either tailored or generic. Even Davison's outfit, stuck in a corner, was the first thing and he settled on it. It makes sense that Colin would rummage through a ton of outfits to settle on what felt like a fit. His line of being from not just another culture but planet is the first in a number of episodes where Six reminds Peri to obey local customs. Not as often as "All these tunnels look the same" (the most underplayed running gag ever and much to its benefit...), but it's an interesting theme nonetheless.
Oh wow. Didn't know the bulk of those happenings.
The costume grew on me, the "TARDIS blue" affects are more distracting and needless. But the 70s striped shirt does work and the 3-hued coat piping, which matches the shirt, isn't as overdone as, say, question marks (which I also like).
Considering 12 and Bill also felt a bit 80s, especially Bill's outfits, Chibnall's era didn't come across as being inspired by the 80s as much as all that. Or seemed to, rather.
Also, by 80s, if you mean violence, then TTC origin element does fit the bill. The "I popped in from another universe, someone found me, and then I got experimented on" explanation is still pants, as is 13's trying to outdo 9 in his finale where he can't press the button to stop the disaster from happening... oddly, that possibly came from Robert Holmes in a twist taken from his original and unused 20th anniversary story (Cybermen want the secret of regeneration so they experiment on the Doctor), for which a part of that was used in "The Two Doctors" (the symbiotic nuclei). https://whosfx.wordpress.com/2020/06/18/the-six-doctors-the-original-synopsis/
I should give the Smith and Capaldi eras another viewing. A shame RTD and Chibnall seem embarrassed, what's to be embarrassed about.
If anything, Smith's era apes Troughton's a little too much at times to feel innovative, but season 5 and various stories from 6 and 7 are no less marvelous.
Indirect comparisons, perhaps. JNT was under threat that if he left the show, there'd be no show - hence fans getting seasons 22-26 at all. Was RTD told that if he didn't return there'd be no show?
Terrance Dicks didn't play up characters or nostalgia for cheap laughs, I can't equate him with any of the Big 3 NuWho Showrunners/writers at all.
Moffat might be close to Adams and, in ways, is better. More expansive in scope, certainly. I don't say that as a slight, both were excellent.
But all 3 have had unique circumstances where none of them is "the new JNT" either. Maybe Chibnall, but I agree - he definitely took in some ideas from Cartmel (Doctor's origins, which even JNT vetoed some of the ideas in "Silver Nemesis" for being excessive and the Doctor is not God) and Hinchcliffe (pre-Hartnell incarnations.) He did the latter really well. Could TTC really be made to work so easily, if at all? I'm not sure but I wasn't warming to it then and still am not. It's innovative, but something doesn't click.
Yeah, it makes more sense if you look at it that way.
I forgot about Tennant's return, but I don't really count him since he was a special anniversary return.
I liked it. It was silly and fluffy, but hey, that was what I needed.
Did anybody immediately think that when the old fella in the 1941 Manchester hotel talked about knowing two women, he was referring to Madame Vastra and Jenny?
I definitely would love to see Anita back. For all the reasons already mentioned, but sometimes I just want the Doctor to have a friend on a deep emotional level that is just a friend and no hint of romance. Yes I want another Donna. At least the hair colour was right!
Did anybody immediately think that when the old fella in the 1941 Manchester hotel talked about knowing two women, he was referring to Madame Vastra and Jenny?
I definitely would love to see Anita back. For all the reasons already mentioned, but sometimes I just want the Doctor to have a friend on a deep emotional level that is just a friend and no hint of romance. Yes I want another Donna. At least the hair colour was right!
Thanks! I'm not the greatest with slang at times...
GAAAAAAAAAH!!!!
Yup, that's bad. (Looks like I don't need any sleep tonight, that's for sure... wake up with nightmares. If anything, I'll pop in "The Brothers" or "Dynasty" and see Kate evil it up a tad. Even "The Mark of the Rani", where she has no OTT scenes and plays it all absolutely straight, will be a relief...)
Unintentional camp is always better than intentional, some shows date and are perceived as camp when it wasn't intentional, but the intentional stuff can be horrendous right out of the gate. Still can't believe that, for example, the SIlver Nemesis special edition, for all its strengths, opted to use a different take for the final scene by McCoy turning to the camera and winking -- I'd otherwise say that's a RTDism or Moffatism with the overt 4th wall stuff, except that happened decades ago and it was one of the alternate takes that never saw the light of day. Not that it's hard to understand why.
If not a trendsetter, since the late-80s out-coated Colin's coat very quickly.
IMHO, TTC ≠ regeneration ID. All TTD does is to identify a reason for the various non-numbered incarnations, starting with the Morbius number as shown in the mortal game in the story's climax, for which Hinchcliffe admitted were the Doctor's incarnations (but then ignored in the 80s, thank Mawdryn for that.) Remove TTC and all the various incarnations still exist, leaving a mystery that needed a rewrite.
Jo was so refreshing to see on screen. Definitely brought an assertive authority presence long missing from the show. The Doctor can be any personality, but fans seem to gravitate toward certain mannerisms more and I dig the authority stuff. Even in rewatching Pertwee of recent thanks to the Classic YT channel, his era is sometimes underrated for sure.
Some of Jo's scenes were echos of McCoy, but whereas Sylvester's was goading Davros into blowing up his home planet, Jo's was doing something not dissimilar with a weapon and the story and situation leading to it felt original enough, there are only so many tropes (combining them to make something feel original is key), I loved the use of the Judoon in this story, and Jo simply acted it all out of the park, she was awesome. Being a fan of classic Who, the number of times the original seven incarnations wielded, created, or otherwise used weapons is high enough that it doesn't feel like a shock - apart from when 13 says "The real Doctor doesn't use guns", which is BS but it's due to past history/memories being unreachable... probably, since - in the past - classic Doctors did remember what their predecessors had done.
Exactly. Jo upstaged Jodie. Whether Jodie's era began with lack of focus or vision, which didn't help because when she couldn't control the TARDIS she could, etc, Jo's entry and backdrop are far more pinpoint and consistent.
I adore that costume!!
That makes sense, esp. Missy. I still do like the more tailored look Jo got. Now I'm imagining one-off stories where she does change into something else. But her main outfit is so iconic.
Whatever the behind the scenes reasons, the Doctor has always put on whatever seemed to work, either tailored or generic. Even Davison's outfit, stuck in a corner, was the first thing and he settled on it. It makes sense that Colin would rummage through a ton of outfits to settle on what felt like a fit. His line of being from not just another culture but planet is the first in a number of episodes where Six reminds Peri to obey local customs. Not as often as "All these tunnels look the same" (the most underplayed running gag ever and much to its benefit...), but it's an interesting theme nonetheless.
Oh wow. Didn't know the bulk of those happenings.
The costume grew on me, the "TARDIS blue" affects are more distracting and needless. But the 70s striped shirt does work and the 3-hued coat piping, which matches the shirt, isn't as overdone as, say, question marks (which I also like).
Considering 12 and Bill also felt a bit 80s, especially Bill's outfits, Chibnall's era didn't come across as being inspired by the 80s as much as all that. Or seemed to, rather.
Also, by 80s, if you mean violence, then TTC origin element does fit the bill. The "I popped in from another universe, someone found me, and then I got experimented on" explanation is still pants, as is 13's trying to outdo 9 in his finale where he can't press the button to stop the disaster from happening... oddly, that possibly came from Robert Holmes in a twist taken from his original and unused 20th anniversary story (Cybermen want the secret of regeneration so they experiment on the Doctor), for which a part of that was used in "The Two Doctors" (the symbiotic nuclei). https://whosfx.wordpress.com/2020/06/18/the-six-doctors-the-original-synopsis/
I should give the Smith and Capaldi eras another viewing. A shame RTD and Chibnall seem embarrassed, what's to be embarrassed about.
If anything, Smith's era apes Troughton's a little too much at times to feel innovative, but season 5 and various stories from 6 and 7 are no less marvelous.
Indirect comparisons, perhaps. JNT was under threat that if he left the show, there'd be no show - hence fans getting seasons 22-26 at all. Was RTD told that if he didn't return there'd be no show?
Terrance Dicks didn't play up characters or nostalgia for cheap laughs, I can't equate him with any of the Big 3 NuWho Showrunners/writers at all.
Moffat might be close to Adams and, in ways, is better. More expansive in scope, certainly. I don't say that as a slight, both were excellent.
But all 3 have had unique circumstances where none of them is "the new JNT" either. Maybe Chibnall, but I agree - he definitely took in some ideas from Cartmel (Doctor's origins, which even JNT vetoed some of the ideas in "Silver Nemesis" for being excessive and the Doctor is not God) and Hinchcliffe (pre-Hartnell incarnations.) He did the latter really well. Could TTC really be made to work so easily, if at all? I'm not sure but I wasn't warming to it then and still am not. It's innovative, but something doesn't click.
The costume I think was a weird choice was Jodie’s, not Jo Martins xD
It was cheap, which didn’t help it, and it was pretty bland too.
I think the Moff is like Dicks in that he *really* cares and thinks about all the stuff, can’t stop coming back, and is the ‘safe pair of hands’ that people call on in a pinch.
Oddly, in terms of ‘stay or it’s cancelled’ that *did* apply to Moff, to an extent, and then Chibnall until they threw money and control at RTD.
I don’t think TTC helped anything, because what it took away was worth more than what it put in. At best, one could argue it turned Who from something of a post-colonialist character to an anti-colonialist one, but only by suddenly framing the Doctor as a victim and messianic hero.
Which is especially frustrating as the long arc over Smith and Capaldi was about doing precisely the opposite in as overt a way as possible. It drew your attention to the concept, cranked it up to eleven (literally) then worked back down from it so the whole was cohesive rather than a radical swerve. It’s particularly noticeable in the way finales and regen stories move away from ‘or the universe/multiverse will end!’ back to the more small and personal, which is what makes the end (TUAT not withstanding) of Capaldi’s Doctor work so much better.
If we think of what is generally regarded as the greatest regen story — Caves of Androzani — then that story is literally about the survival of only Peri, at the cost of the Doctors Fifth Incarnation. Not even a world at stake.
I think Smith apes Troughton a little because that is who Smith himself gravitated to, and it worked exceedingly well. It even made it echo just a little with Davison and McCoy. Davison of course consciously echoed Troughton’s performance in small places. I think it’s also what made some of Capaldi’s very deliberate echoes of Pertwee and Baker The First (soon to be Sir Baker) work as well. There are moments where both of them outright impersonate previous incarnations, but it’s just subtle enough that it doesn’t break anything.
I think that’s something that is missing from RTD — every other Doctor has carefully had a sense of being built from the same material as the others, adding things and echoing things. Even Jodie, for all the faults in her era, had a very small smattering of a Davison, and a couple of small splashes of Troughton and even Baker The Second. (Though she’s actually more self-absorbed and cruel than Six even in his most-criticised scenes.) I think that may be more by accident of writing than design in some cases. (The biggest flaw is Chibnall completely forgot ‘never cruel or cowardly’ in fact, as The Doctor was often both under him, and quite regularly.)
RTD writes something with the trimmings of Who, but none of the meat. He is, alas, all sprouts and stuffing. We didn’t notice under the tinsel first time around, but this time he’s run out of gravy and it’s all very Christmas in July.
Ncuti hasn’t really landed either, if I am honest. I hear he may have done in this special, but I won’t be watching it for other reasons to do with other story and character choices.
