...I mean, if we want to talk about how score can impact a film's perceived pacing, we can just compare the E leaving drydock as shown in TMP versus TWOK.
Star Trek The Motion Picture 45th Anniversary Book Club
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I thought about that but those would be two very different paced scenes even without music. But yes, Meyer wanted a much lighter scene and Horner gave him (mostly) much lighter music. IIRC he says that the TWOK version does not cram the scene down your throat....I mean, if we want to talk about how score can impact a film's perceived pacing, we can just compare the E leaving drydock as shown in TMP versus TWOK.
Of course in the case of TWOK they aren't leaving dock for the first time in two years and they aren't riding out to save the Earth.
The Machine Planet equivalent of hailing frequencies, I would assume.
No doubt to both it and the Klingons, but neither of them could detect it because it was too fast for non-machine consciousnesses to register. (Although that raises the question of why the ships' and outpost's computers couldn't register it.)
Maybe reflecting how much rewriting there was during filming of the final act, though the novel is pretty close to the final version, suggesting it was written late in the game.
I've always figured it was trying to take Spock as a sample but Ilia took the bullet for him.
No guard zappy in the theatrical. I think it's in the ABC, and it's definitely in the Marvel Comics version.
Blasphemy. Don't mess with the Goldsmith.
Goes back to his start, Curse of the Cat People, which was a thoughtful, soulful exercise in surrealism in contrast to the horror film it was a sequel to. The Day the Earth Stood Still is pretty deliberate, though it has some lively sequences like the opening (Bernard Herrmann definitely took the "fast music" advice there).
I don't think so. It was trying to hurt Spock after he smashed the controls (Decker wasn't harmed when he tried to use the console at the same time as the probe, even though he clearly expected to be, so the attack on Spock was definitely deliberate), and when Spock tried to pull Ilia away from it after the probe started advancing on her, it zapped him away again.
It seemed to be Ilia trying to help Spock after the first time he was zapped that attracted the probe's attention. Maybe it clocked her empathic abilities then, and realized she could communicate directly with carbon units wirelessly the same way V'Ger could communicate with machines (and Spock).
No, the guard attack has never been in any filmed version. The (surviving) guard is just suddenly there by the turbolift in the first shot looking towards the back of the bridge. The new DE did some touch-ups to try and fix the alignment between the left and right sides of the frame (on-set, a stage-hand was moving a powerful tube-light, so he'd stand on the left side of the light for one take, then they'd shoot another take of the scene with him standing on the right, and they cut the two shots together in a spit-screen, but the different takes didn't match as closely as they intended). It's still not perfect, but the misalignment is a lot less egregious than it used to be.
@Scrooge McTall , does the book go into more detail about this, or discuss it at all? I always find it a bit humorous in the movie how Spock cuts off access to what is essentially a mainframe computer, by smashing the keyboard of one terminal.
The misalignment has always been one of the most obvious FX glitches, but I tended to rationalize it by thinking maybe the probe was creating an optical distortion in the air around it that warped the view of what was behind it.
There's actually more to the effect than that. IIRC they actually distorted the physical film.
This is the book:
Then:
On film Spock walks to stand behind the helm console which just happens to put Ilia between him and the probe. She doesn't try to distract the probe. Her role is far more passive. (She looks rather distressed to be where she is at.) It zaps her a few times without any effect and then it zaps Spock when he tries to grab her, knocking her away. It also holds off Decker.
Why is she holding a tricorder? She wasn't when the probe appeared. I think the first we see of it is when Spock lands at her feet. (He put his down on his chair.)
After all of Spock's interstellar contact with the Intruder, it scans Ilia a couple of times and decides "I can use this." Spock's just not having a good day.
@Scrooge McTall , does the book go into more detail about this, or discuss it at all? I always find it a bit humorous in the movie how Spock cuts off access to what is essentially a mainframe computer, by smashing the keyboard of one terminal.
This is the book:
Then:
The probe was moving after Spock apparently for smashing his console. (Spock didn't want Franz Joseph Schnaubelt to get paid!) In the film it kicks Spock around more. But even in the book it says "a pinpoint green flash at the contact point sent the Vulcan spinning under the rail and down at Ilia’s feet."
On film Spock walks to stand behind the helm console which just happens to put Ilia between him and the probe. She doesn't try to distract the probe. Her role is far more passive. (She looks rather distressed to be where she is at.) It zaps her a few times without any effect and then it zaps Spock when he tries to grab her, knocking her away. It also holds off Decker.
Why is she holding a tricorder? She wasn't when the probe appeared. I think the first we see of it is when Spock lands at her feet. (He put his down on his chair.)
After all of Spock's interstellar contact with the Intruder, it scans Ilia a couple of times and decides "I can use this." Spock's just not having a good day.
Yes, the way it's staged and paced in the film is unclear, but I think that the scripted intent was that Ilia got in the way, intentionally or otherwise, when the probe went for Spock. That last line you quoted from the novel may be my source for that impression.
I just don't see how V'Ger would've seen anything distinctive about Ilia as opposed to any other "carbon unit" aboard. I mean, yeah, she's an empath, but Spock's a full telepath, so it would have no reason to favor her over him if that were a consideration. V'Ger wouldn't even comprehend what an empath is, since it has no concept that carbon units are living, sentient beings with emotional lives. So the only possible reason I can thnk of why Ilia would've been taken is that she was simply the one closest to the probe when it decided to take a sample.
Looking at the scene on film to write these posts I see that the probe scans Ilia longer than anything else on the bridge other than Spock's library. She is the only person that it interacts with. (Other than the people it smacks away from Ilia.)
She is the closest after it discards Spock. In the book and the film it tosses Spock across the bridge rather than inspecting or taking him. And again, in the book at least, it is suggested that the consciousness has actually examined Spock before this. Perhaps it doesn't recognize him because it was not expecting this consciousness to be in a meat bag.
But no, it doesn't actually make a lot of sense. I suppose that the probe leaving with Ilia is almost a reaction of shock. "What is going on here? I need to take a different tack to figure out this weirdness."
It occurred to me to check the script. The version here seems to match the final film, even though its heading uses the 1978 date of a much earlier draft:
I have the impression that this was supposed to happen at a fast pace, but the nature of shooting the FX sequence slowed it down and so it just seems everyone's standing around weirdly for a few moments before anything happens, making the cause and effect harder to see. It's really a clumsily executed moment.
I have PDFs of a couple of early drafts of TMP from 1978, back when the Ilia probe was going to be called "Tasha." In those drafts, Ilia's abduction happened several scenes before V'Ger probed the ship's computers. In the May 17 draft, the (multiple) probes just arbitrarily focus on Ilia for no apparent reason. In the July 19 draft, the (single) probe is scanning the bridge consoles in general and happens to brush Ilia's hand by accident, whereupon it scans her thoroughly (the crew are able to intercept the data the probe is sending back) and then teleports her away. I guess they realized later it would work better to combine the two scenes and give Ilia more agency, in that she was trying to help Spock rather than just sitting there.
Also, in these early drafts, we learn the answer to your question of what message the intruder sent:
"V'Ger to Enterprise -- state intentions -- identify place of origin" repeated over and over. After Spock breaks the code (and after Ilia is taken), they answer the hail and have a dialogue revealing a lot of the stuff about V'Ger that the Ilia Probe reveals in the final film, and it leads into V'Ger hacking the ship's computer, then attacking the ship and dragging it inside after Spock breaks the link. I think the final version is much better, since actually talking to V'Ger so early gives away too much, and it works better when it comes through the Ilia Probe.
I would guess that those omitted scenes involved Ilia trying to come to Spock's rescue and getting in the way, since that seems to be the only way to interpret the sequence of events.
I have the impression that this was supposed to happen at a fast pace, but the nature of shooting the FX sequence slowed it down and so it just seems everyone's standing around weirdly for a few moments before anything happens, making the cause and effect harder to see. It's really a clumsily executed moment.
I have PDFs of a couple of early drafts of TMP from 1978, back when the Ilia probe was going to be called "Tasha." In those drafts, Ilia's abduction happened several scenes before V'Ger probed the ship's computers. In the May 17 draft, the (multiple) probes just arbitrarily focus on Ilia for no apparent reason. In the July 19 draft, the (single) probe is scanning the bridge consoles in general and happens to brush Ilia's hand by accident, whereupon it scans her thoroughly (the crew are able to intercept the data the probe is sending back) and then teleports her away. I guess they realized later it would work better to combine the two scenes and give Ilia more agency, in that she was trying to help Spock rather than just sitting there.
Also, in these early drafts, we learn the answer to your question of what message the intruder sent:
"V'Ger to Enterprise -- state intentions -- identify place of origin" repeated over and over. After Spock breaks the code (and after Ilia is taken), they answer the hail and have a dialogue revealing a lot of the stuff about V'Ger that the Ilia Probe reveals in the final film, and it leads into V'Ger hacking the ship's computer, then attacking the ship and dragging it inside after Spock breaks the link. I think the final version is much better, since actually talking to V'Ger so early gives away too much, and it works better when it comes through the Ilia Probe.
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How does one ad lib a line written in the script?
Perhaps by being flexible about the timing or the exact phrasing, though I'm not sure how you could rephrase it.
There's a chance this could be a dialogue release script, an after-the-fact documentation of the final cut of the film including the unscripted changes during shooting/editing, but I'd have to review the whole thing to see if that was the case. Presumably even that would include a notation of the omitted scenes so that the scene numbering would be consistent.
Huh. I thought I posted this!
Chapter Nineteen - Tractor Beam
They make the connection that Ilia was not destroyed but may have been transported. There is immediate activity to try and contact the Intruder to tell them that this has happened.
In the film there is stunned silence and recrimination from Decker aimed at Kirk that he just got someone killed being a cowboy. In the book we have moved past this plot.
When the Intruder pulls the Enterprise in Kirk makes an announcement to the crew. What a very Star Trek detail that is missing from the films!
This chapter feels like a Blish adaptation: All the details are there but the dialog and the emphasis is all very different. I like it, sure, but it's amazing to see GR make Star Trek: The Motion Picture feel even more formal.
This sequence is missing the exchanges between Decker and Spock about if they should try to escape with Decker wondering why Spock is opposed to trying, along with Kirk and McCoy exchanging worried glances about Spock's motives. This subplot, at least so far, is getting downplayed. Not as much as the Run Silent, Run Deep Kirk / Decker subplot which seems to have been eliminated.
GR puts the officer's quarters on deck four. The film puts them on deck five in keeping with Kirk and Spock's quarters being on deck five from The Making of Star Trek.
What happens to a quarters sized volume of air when it reaches 1000 degrees? (Celsius, presumably.) I would imagine stuff would happen.
Chapter Nineteen - Tractor Beam
They make the connection that Ilia was not destroyed but may have been transported. There is immediate activity to try and contact the Intruder to tell them that this has happened.
In the film there is stunned silence and recrimination from Decker aimed at Kirk that he just got someone killed being a cowboy. In the book we have moved past this plot.
100km away from Manhattan is somewhere in the neighborhood of Trenton NJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Manhattan fills the horizon of Trenton. If the viewer is on magnification then it's kind of a pointless reference.
Kirk is asking the same questions we were!
When the Intruder pulls the Enterprise in Kirk makes an announcement to the crew. What a very Star Trek detail that is missing from the films!
This chapter feels like a Blish adaptation: All the details are there but the dialog and the emphasis is all very different. I like it, sure, but it's amazing to see GR make Star Trek: The Motion Picture feel even more formal.
"I'm gonna marry that girl!"
"Dammit. My console is all smashed!"
This sequence is missing the exchanges between Decker and Spock about if they should try to escape with Decker wondering why Spock is opposed to trying, along with Kirk and McCoy exchanging worried glances about Spock's motives. This subplot, at least so far, is getting downplayed. Not as much as the Run Silent, Run Deep Kirk / Decker subplot which seems to have been eliminated.
GR puts the officer's quarters on deck four. The film puts them on deck five in keeping with Kirk and Spock's quarters being on deck five from The Making of Star Trek.
What happens to a quarters sized volume of air when it reaches 1000 degrees? (Celsius, presumably.) I would imagine stuff would happen.
I'm sure you're right. But in the film and the book we're left with the fact that the Enterprise has received the only direct communication from the Intruder until now and they never bother to look at it or mention it again.
I just ignored that part.How does one ad lib a line written in the script?
Spock must have read it, since that's how he knew the signal was an attempt at communication. But even in the earlier drafts, it was nothing but a hail and a request to identify. We can presume it was the same in the final version, except probably without the silly "V'Ger to Enterprise" bit. The message Spock sent back that got V'Ger to halt its attack was no doubt an answer to the identification request. So there was nothing more to look at or mention. The exchange was completed, and had served its purpose.
GR does a fairly good job at describing the complexity and immensity, but this is where the film excels IMO. The sheer alienness was beautifully visualized.
The last we heard of it:
On reflection it actually seems out of character for the Intruder to attempt to communicate since it never attempts such direct communication again. In the film this contradiction is addressed in dialog. Kirk, Spock, and Decker discuss that they have no idea why the attack was broken off. And we never really get an answer, either.
It was going to destroy the ship when its hails went unanswered. Yet once it decides not to destroy the ship it doesn't attempt a dialog either.
Breaking into the three sections: The cloud is pretty but goes on too long. The exterior is gorgeous but doesn't give us a proper sense of scale until it swtiches from the Enterprise's POV to actually seeing the ship next to the vessel. Then the scenes with the Enterprise being pulled into the interior are jaw dropping and finally pay off the long shots of the ship at the beginning of the film.
IMHO of course.
V'Ger's mission is to "learn all that is learnable." When it encounters something new, it sends out a hail to see if it shows signs of intelligence. If it doesn't answer the hail, then it's just a routine item to be catalogued, so V'Ger destructively digitizes it and stores its data. If it does answer, V'Ger instead tractor-beams it inside and sends a probe to examine it, gaining baseline data and collecting samples. It uses the information thus gained to proceed to the next stage, opening communication. V'Ger did indeed attempt a dialogue; that was the entire purpose for which the Ilia Probe was created. It just went through the preliminary steps first, like a scientist collecting and analyzing a new specimen. After all, V'Ger is a science probe at heart.
One of these days—someone will put this whole novel into AI to see what it comes up with.
Did Gene ever draw spaceship ideas?
The billion ton super-spacer comes to mind.
With regards to post 161…I can imagine a lot of unused space between hulls
BLSSDWLF's TOS Enterprise WIP
That guy in the window has caused problems before, because it looks odd and seems really out of place. Who knows - perhaps he's a big headed alien, scrabbling around on his knees looking for a contact lense? Using the docking port as an aid to scaling is a good approach - it's one thing we saw...
www.trekbbs.com
BLSSDWLF's TOS Enterprise WIP
I'm pretty sure there were red radiation suits in TMP (not just the collars). I always thought of them as the damage control folks. EDIT: just found this on a prop auction site (I guess they were orange, not red) http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/3/3282/orange_collar.jpg
www.trekbbs.com
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If it answers and then makes its way through Vejur's force field.
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Please don't alter my quoted text without my consent. You are not my editor.
I also don't understand what point you think you're making. It's an utterly trivial detail that doesn't alter the process I've described in any significant way. V'Ger's goal was to analyze the ship more closely, and since the ship was already approaching it anyway, it simply allowed it to. I misspoke in putting the tractor beam before the plasma probe, but the basic motivation is the same: it's gathering information step by step, and once it has enough, it attempts communication by creating the Ilia Probe.
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