Your opinion on SNWs Gorn

[Dukhat]

Kirk would not have received mercy because the Gorn was still under the assumption that Kirk’s people invaded his planet. All of the Gorn’s actions in the episode were about baiting and destroying what they perceived to be a threat to them. If the Gorn just attacked for no reason, or were instinctively just trying to kidnap the Cestus III personnel or the Enterprise crew in order to use them as breeding stock (which did not at all seem to be the case), then that would not show much intelligence or civilization on their part. But the circumstances as presented in the episode, and later info about them from DS9 shows that the Gorn are in fact a civilized intelligent race and more than just mindless xenomorphs.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk would not have received mercy because the Gorn was still under the assumption that Kirk’s people invaded his planet. All of the Gorn’s actions in the episode were about baiting and destroying what they perceived to be a threat to them. If the Gorn just attacked for no reason, or were instinctively just trying to kidnap the Cestus III personnel or the Enterprise crew in order to use them as breeding stock (which did not at all seem to be the case), then that would not show much intelligence or civilization on their part. But the circumstances as presented in the episode, and later info about them from DS9 shows that the Gorn are in fact a civilized intelligent race and more than just mindless xenomorphs.

I don't think they're mindless but I don't think they're just defensive actions either.

Regardless, I don't see the incompatibility as others do because we only know the actions of one moment and allowing that to define an entire species. And that strikes me as extremely short sighted, regardless of what I think of the changes.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think they're mindless but I don't think they're just defensive actions either.

Regardless, I don't see the incompatibility as others do because we only know the actions of one moment and allowing that to define an entire species. And that strikes me as extremely short sighted, regardless of what I think of the changes.

You can think it’s shortsighted all you want. I’m just going by what I see on screen and how this fake alien race is presented to us.

 

[fireproof78]

You can think it’s shortsighted all you want. I’m just going by what I see on screen and how this fake alien race is presented to us.

What I see on screen is incomplete. I can't generalize a whole race off of one encounter.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk would not have received mercy because the Gorn was still under the assumption that Kirk’s people invaded his planet. All of the Gorn’s actions in the episode were about baiting and destroying what they perceived to be a threat to them. If the Gorn just attacked for no reason, or were instinctively just trying to kidnap the Cestus III personnel or the Enterprise crew in order to use them as breeding stock (which did not at all seem to be the case), then that would not show much intelligence or civilization on their part. But the circumstances as presented in the episode, and later info about them from DS9 shows that the Gorn are in fact a civilized intelligent race and more than just mindless xenomorphs.

SNW is showing them to be more than mindless xenomorphs with each appearance

The Gorn seem to operate under the "Shoot first ask questions later" method.

SULU: Captain, we're coming under attack. Unidentified ship quartering in.

KIRK: Can you tell me what happened?
MAN: Scanners reported a ship approaching. We get them now and then. They're all welcome to use our facilities. You know that.
KIRK: Yes, I know.
MAN: They came in space normal speed, using our regular approach route, but they knocked out our phaser batteries with their first salvo. From then on we were helpless. We weren't expecting anything! Why should we? We didn't have anything anyone would want.
KIRK: Easy. Easy.
MAN: They poured it on, like, like phasers, only worse, whatever they were using. I tried to signal them. We called up. Tried to surrender. We had women and children. I told them that! I begged them! They wouldn't listen. They didn't let up for a moment.
KIRK: Lieutenant, the Enterprise received two messages, ostensibly from Cestus Three. One for the Enterprise to go there, and the other for myself and my tactical crew to beam down to the surface.
MAN: They hit us a full day before you got there, Captain. No messages came from us, Captain. Why did they do it? Why? Why did they do it? There has to be a reason. There has to be a reason!

 

[Daedalus]

SNW series 3 might make things line up a bit better anyway. I'm sure they've seen the responses to the whole Gorn thing, but even so, they might have had a plan all along.

 

[Tallguy]

It is very thin lore. Or rather it's brief. It's a single episode. But many things in SNW completely back this up. Luring in potential adversaries with a fake transmission to sucker punch them with a sneak attack? It turns out (from SNW) that this is textbook Gorn. A territorial, reptilian race? Sounds like Gorn.

But it's clear from the episode that Kirk, and more specifically Spock, Uhura, and Scott, have never heard of the Gorn. This was getting tough to swallow in early SNW when it was very clear that the Gorn had become something of a legend, although people with actual encounters were serving in Starfleet.

Now all three of theses characters have had up close and personal interactions with the Gorn. Heck, Scotty can now associate his first encounter with the Enterprise with the Gorn.

 

[fireproof78]

Did people think Arena was a first encounter?

 

[BillJ]

Did people think Arena was a first encounter?

It was presented as being the first time. Kirk doesn’t seem to know what the alien commander is, noting the Metron called it a Gorn while recording a log.

 

[fireproof78]

It was presented as being the first time. Kirk doesn’t seem to know what the alien commander is, noting the Metron called it a Gorn while recording a log.

My bad since I never took it that way watching on VHS but that was post novels for me too.

 

[Nerys Myk]

My bad since I never took it that way watching on VHS but that was post novels for me too.

Well it does lean heavily on the "unknown enemy" and "unidentified ship" tropes.

 

[BillJ]

My bad since I never took it that way watching on VHS but that was post novels for me too.

Spock takes lifesign readings while on Cestus III. Describes them, but doesn’t put a name to them. Which, to me, would seem to be a pretty important piece of information for the captain to have.

Cestus III also doesn’t seem to know what hit them. It seems a known predator species sitting on the border would be another important piece of information, for everyone involved.

 

[fireproof78]

Well it does lean heavily on the "unknown enemy" and "unidentified ship" tropes.

It does but I'm not one to think "Kirk doesn't know therefore no one knows."

Spock takes lifesign readings while on Cestus III. Describes them, but doesn’t put a name to them. Which, to me, would seem to be a pretty important piece of information for the captain to have.

Cestus III also doesn’t seem to know what hit them. It seems a known predator species sitting on the border would be another important piece of information, for everyone involved.

Fair points though I don't agree with the conclusion.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It does but I'm not one to think "Kirk doesn't know therefore no one knows."

No one on the bridge or Cestus III know either. The Gorn have to be using new ships that the crew cannot identify.

 

[BillJ]

It does but I'm not one to think "Kirk doesn't know therefore no one knows."

No one seems to know. The Gorn ship wasn’t identified by anyone on the bridge, Cestus III didn’t recognize them and Spock doesn’t recognize them. Neither on Cestus nor when shown on the viewscreen.

They had their own ideas for the Gorn and simply ignored the details of “Arena”.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I like what they done with the Gorn, so I'm fine with fudging some aspects of "Arena."

 

[fireproof78]

No one on the bridge or Cestus III know either. The Gorn have to be using new ships that the crew cannot identify.

Agreed. That's my whole point. Not that the Gorn are a complete unknown.

No one seems to know. The Gorn ship wasn’t identified by anyone on the bridge, Cestus III didn’t recognize them and Spock doesn’t recognize them. Neither on Cestus nor when shown on the viewscreen.

See above. Doesn't mean no one knows who the Gorn are or this is the first encounter by Starfleet.

They had their own ideas for the Gorn and simply ignored the details of “Arena”.

Presumption.

I like what they done with the Gorn, so I'm fine with fudging some aspects of "Arena."

I'm still in the mindset of wait and see. I don't care about the Gorn, so fudging the lore is about as important to me as Kirk's middle initial. But, the whole breeding aspects is a high point of irritation, La'an's PTSD over it is frustrating, and it feels all very stilted in terms of a threat.

 

[BillJ]

Presumption

Pretty accurate presumption, I would imagine. All one has to do is look at the two products and to see they don’t mesh well.

 

[fireproof78]

Pretty accurate presumption, I would imagine. All one has to do is look at the two products and to see they don’t mesh well.

You do you, my friend King.

I'll not presume another's mindset around a production choice.

 

[BillJ]

Doesn't mean no one knows who the Gorn are or this is the first encounter by Starfleet.

Wasn’t Spock, Chapel and Uhura on the Enterprise when they encounter the Gorn in SNW?