It sure did, did you not watch ST:PRO?
Warp 10 barrier
- Thread starter someone74
- Start date
It's funny because Warp 10 was hit several times in TOS.
That was before the warp scale with its system of determining warp speeds was overhauled, presumably in the 24th century. Behind the scenes this was done for TNG, but as the OP noted in this thread, early episodes didn't consistently reflect this. Or the series finale All Good Things, for that matter.... which, in my head canon, is more evidence that the whole thing was a Q-induced fever dream and not "really" happening.
I could be remembering wrong, but I don't think the warp 10 limit was explicitly mentioned in spoken dialog in Trek film/TV "cannnnnnnnnnon" until VOY's Threshold.
A practical consideration of the TNG-and-beyond logarithmic warp scale is that as you go faster and faster into ludicrous speeds, you will get these ridiculous warp factors with more and more decimals, like 9.999999999999999999999999999999999912. Who wants to say that out loud? I think it's more efficient to just say "warp 13" or "warp 23" or whatever it would have been in the TOS-era scale.
Kor
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I think that's incredibly silly.
I basically did that for the Warp Factor 3.0 scale that I made which was taken from the TNG era Warp Factor scale, and I threw away the Hand-Drawn curve to infinity that is past Warp Factor 9.
After that, I just let the TNG era Warp Factor formula run naturally to infinity.
It works just fine, and the #'s that you would use, don't get too large with any type of travel that you would practically use on a week to week basis in a regular ep of Star Trek.
Most Wf usage ends up between: 1-Digit to 3-Digit Warp Factors.
Very, Very rarely do you venture past those speeds since they get so fast, that you can easily cross the span of Galaxies in short order.
Sort of like the FASA redesign of the warp factor in their aborted TNG era roleplaying game. In TOS the scale was the warp factor squared. For FASA's TNG scale, it was the warp factor to the fifth power. This would make the FASA TNG Warp 10 traveling starship able to cross the Galaxy in a year if they could maintain it.
Sort of, but I didn't change the formula, I just used the existing TNG era formula.
Then I literally ignored the "Hand Drawn Curve to infinity" that exists past WF 9 & I let the TNG formula continue onto infinity.
That "Hand Drawn Curve to Infinity" was the most BS concept IMO, just adding 9.99999999… to indicate faster speed is a asinine way to indicate speed progression.
The original TNG era formula was fine on it's own, BtS (Behind the Scenes) they never bothered doing the calculations over spreadsheet to test out how fast things were going to travel as you increase the Warp Factor along with how much distance any object was going to travel given time.
It was lazy math when it was conceived in the late 1980's, & I know that SpreadSheet software was in it's infancy, but I know it existed.
I made that SpreadSheet, it works "GREAT" IMO in figuring out how fast you need to go to cover ___ light years in ___ amount of time.
At least with my Warp Factor 3.0, it's easy to classify Warp Speed Regimes.
It's similar to the "Classification of Mach Regimes", but with a Metric Twist.
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Indeed.
Warp speeds in the 'early days' (pre-UFP to early 24th C) were typically "Warp Factor cubed x C", so Warp 10 would have been 1000c on average.
At some point prior to the 2360s, the scale was recalibrated using a more complex formula (and some hand-drawn curves above Warp 9), dropping the 'old' Warp 10 down to just under Warp 8 under average conditions.
That reminds me of Voyager’s Vaadwaur hyperspace—though it more closely resembles that of Babylon 5.
In Trek is helps to have swan like design and such—but if you just “open” up the subway door, you can get by with a less sophisticated ship?
Is there a "Light Year" figure to indicate how far they traveled, or what Hyper-Space Lanes they took so we can measure how far they traveled?
The role playing game said that TOS warp is C cubed. Warp 13 TOS (2200ish x the speed of light) seems like it's just a little faster than warp 9 on the tng scale.
Their galaxy could be a hundred times smaller than the Milky Way.
IC
Never Mind, I looked it up, the Star Wars Galaxy is 120,000 ly in Diameter.
Assuming the Top-Down 2D picture depicted is similar to the ones we use in Star Trek, that should be the "Thin Disk" section of "The Star Wars" Galaxy.
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The top known speed of the TOS USS Enterprise was Warp Factor 14.1 (under duress), which using the old system (which was also used in ENT) would have the ship go 2800 times the speed of light. Which means if USS Excelsior wished to break this record, it would need to reach something closer to the TNG scale of Warp 9.9.
However using those old rpg warp factors, the older TOS ships weren't that much slower than typical TNG starships. With the high end Constitution IIs and Excelsiors pushing Warp Factors 10-12. Not much below the Galaxy-class' TNG scale Warp 9.6 (more like Warp 9.4 on the high end with Warp 8 being on the low end). If the Kelvins could stabilized a Constitution for long range travel at Warp Factor 11, a redefined TNG scale would place that at Warp 9 (which would be about Warp Factor 11.5)
However using those old rpg warp factors, the older TOS ships weren't that much slower than typical TNG starships. With the high end Constitution IIs and Excelsiors pushing Warp Factors 10-12. Not much below the Galaxy-class' TNG scale Warp 9.6 (more like Warp 9.4 on the high end with Warp 8 being on the low end). If the Kelvins could stabilized a Constitution for long range travel at Warp Factor 11, a redefined TNG scale would place that at Warp 9 (which would be about Warp Factor 11.5)
Although TOS in actuality didn't adhere to any particular formula. TOS' Warp 8 between systems was over 700,000c but next to a star a few times c or even less. For all practical purposes, TOS was it's only tech universe while ENT, TNG, and later series etc settled loosely on the formula shown in the TNG:TM.
In terms of speed, the Vaadwaur underspace allowed VOY to traverse 200 Ly's in about 1 minute and 21 seconds based on the on-screen dialogue... but it took time for Janeway to get to the bridge since receiving the report that they were dragged inside in the first place, so I'd say it's about 2 minutes total, if its real time.
If it is 100Ly's per 1 minute, then that would be 6,000 Ly's in an hour, aka 144,000 ly's per day, or 52.56 million x C.
Not bad.
We know the underspace corridors go all the way to Talaxia - but they don't appear to extend to the Alpha or Beta Quadrants it seems - Voyager would have been 1000 ly's closer to Earth if the Vaadwaur kept up their end of the deal - which means, the ship would still be in the DQ roughly (or right near the edge of the Delta and Beta Quadrants.
They are superior to because they are naturally occurring, but they also appear limited in how far they extend - which I guess is still useful for DQ exploration if you can get there and know how to use them
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There's no "Official Map", and everything is kept secret by remembering entrance/exit points in a persons head.
That limits the accuracy.
For all we know it could span across the entire Milky Way.
There's no proof for or against that it might be Natural.
There's simply not enough time exploring the nature of 'UnderSpace'.
The only thing we know is that LOTS of species have been using it for centuries to cross vast distances.
Remember, the Vaadwur "Found it" by accident and made use of it by exploring it.
They even mention needing to "Maintain It".
What that entails, we don't know.
Does that mean they have to do something to keep it open? We don't know.
Does it mean cleaning up and space debris sitting inside UnderSpace Corridors due to accidents flying inside? We don't know.
Giant chunks of 'UnderSpace' isn't even explored properly.
There's no evidence that it's Natural or Artificial.
We just don't have enough info to determine either state.
The only thing we do know is that it's there, to be used.
It's been there for centuries as well, and that it's VAST and covers a VERY long distance relative to real space.
To accidentally access it, you have to have your Warp Field collide with the UnderSpace Corridor, which drags you into it.
That's how Voyager found it, sheer dumb luck while going at Warp.
That's a needle in a HayStack kind of thing given the vastness of space.
With no apparent outside markers, you're just hoping to collide with it, that's maddening to find out other than to get lucky or waste lots of resources trying to map it's equivalent passage through real space.
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Only the Vaadwaur were the ones who said to never keep data records for security reasons, but otherwise, we don't know if the Turei have the same policy (they only wanted to ensure that VOY's own databanks were purged of this information as they considered the under-space theirs, but for all we know, the Turei do in fact keep extensive data in their computers) - oh and, VOY's own databanks were never purged of this information.
As for maintenance of the corridors... I suspect it depends on a few factors: degradation would likely be fixed by targeting the radial walls with deflector pulses to stabilize them if degradation was occurring and obviously NOT keeping debris inside it (which the Turei hadn't done, either due to ignorance or sheer neglect).
Also, VOY's brief stint (2 mins long trip) was enough to gain extensive data on the corridors themselves, so its probably a relatively simple to run extrapolative algorithms for the computer to find where they are and how to more easily access them (but, its very likely the corridors only have few points of exit/entry, and they could be very far in between, so it wouldn't necessarily be too practical because it could take months or years to reach the nearest point and then there was no guarantee more Turei ships won't be lurking inside (for VOY that is - for general exploration and expansion efforts, it would likely be enough).
While I will agree the data is limited, if Gedrin was honest about VOY finding itself 1000 LY's closer to Earth, then that means the under-space does NOT in fact extend to the AQ (or BQ for that matter), but is mainly native to the DQ as a whole (and the Vaadwuar themselves mentioned the corridors are naturally occurring, and I don't think they were lying about it) - it may lead from one end of the quadrant to the next, which is useful if you want to make a shortcut through the Quadrant yes, but that still means you need to GET there.
In this instance, the under-space would likely be similar to Borg TW network... but much more localized (native to the DQ specifically, but doesn't span the galaxy).
True, but that's only a small section of the entire network that Voyager got info on.
Yeah, it's been several centuries and countless other species were using the UnderSpace Network, so who knows how clean it is.
Hard to say, whomever built it, could've built it as a fast way to cross the entire Galaxy, and we don't know about it.
Who knows given the lack of info in total.
Given that the Vaadwur themselves only maintained memory knowledge of the routes, they might not have explored the entire thing.
They didn't keep computerized data records of it.
Something the Federation & other species would do.
Remains to be seen, personally I would add the option in future series to have it spread across the entire Milky Way Galaxy like the Mycelial network.
But accessing it would be hard for average folks if they don't know about it because it's literally finding a needle in a hay stack level of hard to find.
And with Warp Drives, you're not likely to be traversing the same point in space, so it's completely random if you encounter it.
As I said, SF would likely have an easy time finding and accessing the under-space because VOY's databanks contain useful information from their flight inside it from which they can extrapolate probable locations - but even if they can get there, given that SF generally respects sovereignty of other species, its unlikely they would try using it without Turei consent (or establishment of some kind of diplomatic treaty giving them access - which I don't think the Turei would be necessarily willing to share given that VOY released the Vaadwaur into the galaxy again).
Plus, it may not be necessary. If SF manages to just get QS v1 operational and if they can use the cruising velocity of about 666.666 Ly's per day (and not running it at its maximum of 300 Ly's per hr unless its an emergency), then they could probably cover massive distances either way much faster if QS v2 is used sparingly for much larger distances where Benamite crystal use accelerates their decay.
Btw regarding the cleaning of the underspace... that would be relatively simple to do.
Just deploy automated drones into the underspace to explore it (or the Turei could have used it) and have them tractor and retrieve the debris (when they find it) which can then be disassembled into energy (or matter reclamation) and used for replication of other things (I suggested the same approach for cleanup of TW tunnels seen and used in Disco 32nd century which were deemed a general hazzard for starship travel - which of course makes you wonder how did Osyraa's massive starship manage to safely traverse it - oh wait, I forgot - the villains get a free pas mostly and come out unscathed, while the heroes have to go through extra trouble).
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