In the Pale Moonlight - Garak and the explosive gel

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm asking you to take the show at face value.

I always take the producers' interests at face value. They consistently do things to shift attention away from the mundane toward questions they find more interesting. Were the characters in a simulation in Things Past? The answer is given in the first parts of the episode. How did Kurn stop the Dominion fleet? We don't see this, and it contributes little to the theme of heroism.

 

[kkt]

Biomemetic gel is hard to get, and there are much easier explosives to get. If an explosive is all Garak needed, he wouldn't have taken the chance that Sisko might cancel the whole operation rather order Bashir to supply biomemetic gel. Or have Bashir calling up Starfleet Medical for an opinion about whether it's a legal order. Garak had no love of the Dominion and wanted the operation to succeed just as much as Sisko. He wouldn't be putting unnecessary obstacles in the way. Sellers of black market genuine data rods are in a position to demand just about anything and need something really special to make it worth the risk. Not just latinum, not just an ordinary explosive.

Just because Garak lies a lot doesn't mean everything he says is a lie. That helps make him interesting.

 

[fireproof78]

Biomemetic gel is hard to get, and there are much easier explosives to get. If an explosive is all Garak needed, he wouldn't have taken the chance that Sisko might cancel the whole operation rather order Bashir to supply biomemetic gel. Or have Bashir calling up Starfleet Medical for an opinion about whether it's a legal order. Garak had no love of the Dominion and wanted the operation to succeed just as much as Sisko. He wouldn't be putting unnecessary obstacles in the way. Sellers of black market genuine data rods are in a position to demand just about anything and need something really special to make it worth the risk. Not just latinum, not just an ordinary explosive.

Just because Garak lies a lot doesn't mean everything he says is a lie. That helps make him interesting.

But what became of the gel? Useful to Garak regardless of what he says.

 

[Crewman6]

I always take the producers' interests at face value. They consistently do things to shift attention away from the mundane toward questions they find more interesting. Were the characters in a simulation in Things Past? The answer is given in the first parts of the episode. How did Kurn stop the Dominion fleet? We don't see this, and it contributes little to the theme of heroism.

Your examples aren't even in the same universe as what you're pitching here, which is that the writers buried an important plot point so deep that no one saw it and they made zero acknowledgement of it at all. That is not how the show has ever worked.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The source of the data rod, the intended use of the gel, Starfleet's reaction to the plan, how the shuttle was destroyed: these are all wild cards. We have enough information to speculate, but not enough to come to conclusions. Garak being the source for many of these is another source of uncertainty. I think that the Ronald Moore, whom Michael Taylor credits with a heavy rewrite, enjoys teasing people with conspiracies and, under Behr's influence, has become a master at managing details. They wanted a story focused on Sisko's choices, how his intentions blinded him to the consequences of his actions. That is precisely what they accomplished.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Your examples aren't even in the same universe as what you're pitching here, which is that the writers buried an important plot point so deep that no one saw it and they made zero acknowledgement of it at all. That is not how the show has ever worked.

Please reread what I wrote. They producers have constantly sought to be different from other television shows. They are willing to subvert expectations of television drama, even other Star Trek shows. They hate quibbling over stupid details. Things Past and Once More Unto the Breach are examples in which they avoided being mired in minutiae. Identifying the purpose of the gel would be another such bit of trivia.

 

[AntonyF]

The line about the gel making explosives is clearly just tossed off

These comments make me wonder if any of you have ever seen a TV show before.

Well we all can't live in the lofty places that you do, where we understand every machination of the writers and can share them with the lowly plebs on messageboards.

The reason why I shared this was I thought it was an interesting possibility, and I don't think one can conclude 100% one way or the other short of asking the writers.

Until then, we can respect we have different opinions.

Also the writers are capable of foreshadowing, it's not beyond their writing prowess. They did it when setting up arcs, but also within episodes.

The salt and pepper shakers where Bashir couldn't find one that was working was an early indicator of luck issues on the station in Rivals.

So Garak acquiring potentially explosive material, then boomyity boom boom a bit later... it's not an insane thought.

 

[kkt]

But what became of the gel? Useful to Garak regardless of what he says.

Traded it to the supplier of the data rod. If he didn't trade the gel for the data rod, what else did Garak have to trade for the data rod?

 

[fireproof78]

Traded it to the supplier of the data rod. If he didn't trade the gel for the data rod, what else did Garak have to trade for the data rod?

And the supplier died, by Garak's hand it's implied..

 

[AntonyF]

Traded it to the supplier of the data rod. If he didn't trade the gel for the data rod, what else did Garak have to trade for the data rod?

Well he didn't have to give all of it. It's also not out of the realm of possibility he had a rod all along.

 

[DonIago]

Another possibility, of course, is that the bio-mimetic gel never left Starfleet's hands. We know Sisko agrees to the deal, but once Tolar dies, assuming the gel was ever actually delivered to him in the first place, it doesn't necessarily follow that it falls into Garak's possession...and if it did, I'd think Sisko would have another "conversation" with him, particularly if the gel could point the way to Federation involvement in Vreenak's demise.

I think there's also some question as to whether Sisko would ever let the gel enter Garak's possession in the first place. Yes, he was playing middleman, but considering how controversial the substance was, Sisko might have insisted on it being transferred directly to Tolar. (N.B. I don't remember the details of any pertinent dialogue.)

 

[fireproof78]

Another possibility, of course, is that the bio-mimetic gel never left Starfleet's hands. We know Sisko agrees to the deal, but once Tolar dies, assuming the gel was ever actually delivered to him in the first place, it doesn't necessarily follow that it falls into Garak's possession...and if it did, I'd think Sisko would have another "conversation" with him, particularly if the gel could point the way to Federation involvement in Vreenak's demise.

I think there's also some question as to whether Sisko would ever let the gel enter Garak's possession in the first place. Yes, he was playing middleman, but considering how controversial the substance was, Sisko might have insisted on it being transferred directly to Tolar. (N.B. I don't remember the details of any pertinent dialogue.)

Here's the dialog and he is acting as if business is concluded. No mention of waiting for payment:
(The wooden case has a Cardassian emblem on it.)
TOLAR: Well. It has been a pleasure doing business with you, gentlemen. Call me again if you ever need
SISKO: You're not going anywhere.
TOLAR: What? What do you mean?
SISKO: I mean you're not leaving until your work is accepted by our client.
TOLAR: That isn't fair. You can't keep me here against my will! I haven't done anything wrong. We had an agreement.
(Sisko pushes Tolar up against the bulkhead.)
SISKO: I'm making a new agreement. If that programme passes inspection, you walk free, but if there's even the slightest flaw, the I will send you back to that Klingon prison and tell Gowron to take his time while he executes you.
TOLAR: All right. It will pass. You'll see. It will pass.
GARAK: I sincerely hope so. Now why don't you go back to your quarters. I'll be along shortly to say hello.

 

[kkt]

And the supplier died, by Garak's hand it's implied..

I meant the supplier of the blank data rod, not Tolar the hologram forger. Getting Tolar out of Klingon prison was to be payment in full for his services making a fake hologram recording and imprinting it on the data rod. A shame he didn't live long enough to enjoy his freedom.

Garak says the supplier of the blank data rod, who we never saw or learned his name, was already bargained down to a smaller quantity of biomimetic gel. Of course, Garak might have always planned on keeping some the gel for a rainy day.

I'm sure the supplier of the blank data rod insisted on the gel before turning over the data rod.

 

[fireproof78]

I meant the supplier of the blank data rod, not Tolar the hologram forger. Getting Tolar out of Klingon prison was to be payment in full for his services making a fake hologram recording and imprinting it on the data rod. A shame he didn't live long enough to enjoy his freedom.

Garak says the supplier of the blank data rod, who we never saw or learned his name, was already bargained down to a smaller quantity of biomimetic gel. Of course, Garak might have always planned on keeping some the gel for a rainy day.

I'm sure the supplier of the blank data rod insisted on the gel before turning over the data rod.

I'm sure the supplier also died.

 

[kkt]

I'm sure the supplier also died.

Maybe, but I don't think there's even a hint in the episode that that was the case. Supplying data rods is a high risk activity that the supplier will keep very quiet for his own sake.

They did leave some loose ends, though. Bashir knows Sisko ordered the gel, but not why. Quark knows Sisko wanted Tolar's presence on the station hushed up, and probably knows that he died, and probably knows what Tolar did for a living, but not why he was on the station. They both know a Romulan ship carrying a Senator docked at the station for a while, and then blew up mysteriously after it left. They know that shortly afterwards the Romulans joined the Federation-Klingon alliance. If they put the pieces together they might get an idea what happened.

 

[Farscape One]

Bashir and Quark did not know a Romulan ship came to DS9. At most, Worf might have a clue, because he was handling security at the area near where Vreenak was getting off. But Worf didn't seem to connect anything when he gave the news to Sisko about Vreenak's death.

 

[DonIago]

Here's the dialog and he is acting as if business is concluded. No mention of waiting for payment:
(The wooden case has a Cardassian emblem on it.)
TOLAR: Well. It has been a pleasure doing business with you, gentlemen. Call me again if you ever need
SISKO: You're not going anywhere.
TOLAR: What? What do you mean?
SISKO: I mean you're not leaving until your work is accepted by our client.
TOLAR: That isn't fair. You can't keep me here against my will! I haven't done anything wrong. We had an agreement.
(Sisko pushes Tolar up against the bulkhead.)
SISKO: I'm making a new agreement. If that programme passes inspection, you walk free, but if there's even the slightest flaw, the I will send you back to that Klingon prison and tell Gowron to take his time while he executes you.
TOLAR: All right. It will pass. You'll see. It will pass.
GARAK: I sincerely hope so. Now why don't you go back to your quarters. I'll be along shortly to say hello.

Thanks for that. So we don't really know what happened to the gel after Tolar's death. It could have ended up with Garak, or Sisko could have reclaimed it. The latter seems more likely; I can't imagine he'd just let Garak walk off with it.

 

[kkt]

Bashir and Quark did not know a Romulan ship came to DS9. At most, Worf might have a clue, because he was handling security at the area near where Vreenak was getting off. But Worf didn't seem to connect anything when he gave the news to Sisko about Vreenak's death.

Sure they would. Someone was working in Ops to give Vreenak's ship permission to dock. Romulan ships - especially small ships carrying just a few VIPs - don't come docking all the time, they're going to talk about it. And ordering them NOT to talk about it would be the best way of making sure that they DO. Bashir, at least, would hear about it. And after Vreenak's ship blew up, it was publicly announced that Vreenak was killed. They'll realize that the Romulan ship that was docked at DS9 is the one that later blew up.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure that we really knew what Ops knew, considering that Vreenak's ship arrived under cloak and didn't de-cloak until it was already within the runabout bay. Would they be able to distinguish between a cloaked Romulan ship and a cloaked Klingon ship? I would think there may be protocols for heavily classified missions wherein Ops personnel aren't really told what's going on as far as a ship arriving/departing.

 

[Farscape One]

Sure they would. Someone was working in Ops to give Vreenak's ship permission to dock. Romulan ships - especially small ships carrying just a few VIPs - don't come docking all the time, they're going to talk about it. And ordering them NOT to talk about it would be the best way of making sure that they DO. Bashir, at least, would hear about it. And after Vreenak's ship blew up, it was publicly announced that Vreenak was killed. They'll realize that the Romulan ship that was docked at DS9 is the one that later blew up.

Vreenak's ship came in cloaked. Sisko himself was at the landing pad's docking controls when Kira informs him over the intercom that they received a signal, which she asks if she should reply, and Sisko tells her 'no reply'. He then opens the landing pad (which this is also the only time in the series we get this view of the inside of the pads), and as the pad is lowered, it looks completely empty. It's only after the doors to space are fully closed that the ship decloaks.

Also, at the end when Worf delivers the news, Bashir is right there and is adding dialogue between him, Dax, and Worf about the Dominion assassinating a Romulan senator on a diplomatic mission and how it changes everything, and could even being them into the war. So none of them are shown to even suspect any connection between Vreenak and DS9.