What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's like half the plots of Star Trek.

There's a difference between incompetence due to lack of training from StarFleet and just getting beaten hard.

Given how vast the Universe is, StarFleet can afford to get beaten, even if prepared.

There's no shame in losing a battle or getting beat when the enemy is better prepared and plans a trap/ambush.

It does happen.

Look at Pearl Harbor IRL, the Japanese prepared to the N-th degree and they suffered minimal losses when they surprise attacked Pearl Harbor.

No amount of training from our side could prepare when the enemy had training, a game plan, and a surprise attack that over-whelmed our forces @ Pearl Harbor.

Granted that brought the US into WW2, but that was Japan's best shot at crippling the US' Pacific Fleet, luckily our carriers were away that fateful day on training exercises.

The difference is how we handle a situation with the training we do have, and Kirk's first instinct is to shoot at that massive of a Swarm instead of running away was a VERY bad decision.
He wasted too much time trying to fight instead of running away to fight another day.

How about a REEEEALLY slow WEB of some kind?

They should've never let it close the web / finish it's construction.

 

[fireproof78]

The difference is how we handle a situation with the training we do have, and Kirk's first instinct is to shoot at that massive of a Swarm instead of running away was a VERY bad decision.
He wasted too much time trying to fight instead of running away to fight another day.

Easy for us to say.

There's a difference between incompetence due to lack of training from StarFleet and just getting beaten hard.

So, we get to sideline quarterback and declare Kirk incompetent?

Seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Kirk was under the impression that people needed saving so his first instinct was to push forward. Strikes me as a fairly Starfleet thing to do.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Easy for us to say.

That's the job of those who read "After Action Reports" and evaluate how he can improve for the 'Next Encounter' that has a similar setup.

So, we get to sideline quarterback and declare Kirk incompetent?

StarFleet didn't give him adequate enough training on potential "Worst Case Scenarios".
That's StarFleet's responsibility to stick his bridge crew into simulators with many of these potential scenarios so that he has some idea what the best strategy / tactic is to do before he has to deal with the real thing.
Massive Swarm Attacks against one large ship aren't a new concept, it's a very old & effective concept.
StarFleet needs to be ready to deal with this scenario should it come up.

Seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Kirk was under the impression that people needed saving so his first instinct was to push forward. Strikes me as a fairly Starfleet thing to do.

The Captain getting the ship either (Stranded / Destroyed / Captured / Incapacitated) is going to do jack for saving the captured crew that needs rescuing if you can't take care of yourself FIRST.

He encountered the deadly Swarm First, before he worries about the crew that needs saving; he needs to worry about himself, his ship, & his crew FIRST.

Then once the situation with the deadly Swarm is solved, then he goes back and saves the hostages.

There's no point in sending a rescue team if they become hostages themselves.

It's like Operation Eagle Claw by PotUS Jimmy Carter where they sent a Special Forces rescue team to recover the US Embassy Staff and failed miserably.

The only difference in Captain Kirk's case is that he lost the USS Enterprise and his crew got captured, which made the situation worse.

He got lucky that he figured a way out and prevented the attack on the Federation StarBase.

After Re-Watching the scene, I'll give Kirk's props for recognizing that it was a trap the moment he saw the Swarm on the View Screen.
He went Red Alert right away, after that, the decision to slug it out was VERY BAD.
He didn't listen to Spock's advice, which he should've.
He should've run away and have a running / shooting battle first to escape in tact and get his bearings as to why there was a trap waiting for him.
What about the Kalara's request to rescue her ship & crew didn't add up.

 

[fireproof78]

That's the job of those who read "After Action Reports" and evaluate how he can improve for the 'Next Encounter' that has a similar setup.

I'm good without having this job.

Massive Swarm Attacks against one large ship aren't a new concept, it's a very old & effective concept.
StarFleet needs to be ready to deal with this scenario should it come up.

It is? I wasn't aware this was a common occurrence in Starfleet's experience at the time.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It is? I wasn't aware this was a common occurrence in Starfleet's experience at the time.

I'm talking based on human history and encounters in War/Conflict.

We've had previous experiences with fighting massive hordes of weaker vessels.

Right now, it's a popular tactic with IRL pirates, swarming larger vessels in mass to capture them.

This concept isn't new or unheard of.

Making hordes of weaker ships to fight a massive capital ship like the USS Enterprise is a simple concept.

Doesn't really matter who implements the strategy / tactic.

Be it "Balthazar Edison | Krall" or "The Dominion" or "Control with it's Section 31 Drone Ships".

It's a very old idea that always comes back into play from time to time.

The popular tactic right now is to send hordes of cheapo drones with small explosive payloads to over-whelm a enemies point defense systems.

Or send Rocket Barrages of Dumb-Fire Rockets to over whelm defense systems.

Good LeaderShip at top prepares for any kind of scenario and comes up with game plan / training for it.

That's what IRL folks up in the DoD does, they come up with viable plans of Attack & Counter-Plans and simulate / test them out.

I'm sure StarFleet's Upper Brass has an entire group dedicated to doing that as well.

If they don't, they're going to be "Un-Prepared" should the time come.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure StarFleet's Upper Brass has an entire group dedicated to doing that as well.

Why?

Starfleet has not demonstrated that capability. They are reactive, not proactive.

I'm talking based on human history and encounters in War/Conflict.

All well and good but I'm talking about Starfleet and what they are demonstrating as being their prime focus. Swarm warfare has not been demonstrated.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Why?

Starfleet has not demonstrated that capability. They are reactive, not proactive.

That's a HORRIBLE way to run a para military organization.

Being Reactive instead of Proactive is bound to get more people killed IMO.

That arrogance is what leads to the dumb strategy/tactics employed when facing the Borg Cube and the Battle of Wolf 359 & Battle of Sector 001

Why are they fighting Borg Cubes at close range? If you're within Tractor Beam or Energy/Shield Drain Beam range, you're fighting TOO DAMN close.

Go maximum stand-off distance of 1x Light Second and bombard the Borg until they're pulverized.

Being within Tractor Beam / Energy Draining Beam distance is stupid when you don't have to be.

They had a small fleet, fight at stand-off range and pummel until they're obliterated, every ship can switch to random Shield/Phaser frequencies on a individual level.
Let the engineers figure it out and find a unique way of setting the frequencies to random that is different on a individual Ship / Personnel level.

This Way the Borg Shields can at best block 1x or 2x sets of Frequencies, the other sets would eventually penetrate or do damage to the shields.

In-fact having all ships on individual random rotating frequencies of varying unique / individual random patterns should be the default SOP (Standard Operating Procedure).

This way, no two ships or individuals out in the field would have the same frequencies ever, it would be so random, that countering them would be futile.

All well and good but I'm talking about Starfleet and what they are demonstrating as being their prime focus. Swarm warfare has not been demonstrated.

Section 31 & it's Drone Ships says otherwise.
Kirk & the Enterprise Crew countering with their hordes of mini shuttles also states otherwise.
StarFleet obviously demonstrates that they know about Swarm Tactics and have thought to implement them in the past.

They obviously have ideas & thoughts about fighting in mass numbers of weak ships.

 

[fireproof78]

Section 31 & it's Drone Ships says otherwise.

Wrong timeline.

StarFleet obviously demonstrates that they know about Swarm Tactics and have thought to implement them in the past.

They obviously have ideas & thoughts about fighting in mass numbers of weak ships.

See above. This isn't the same Starfleet so this criticism falls extremely flat.

That's a HORRIBLE way to run a para military organization.

But that's their approach. Treating it otherwise means ignoring past history. In the Kelvin Universe specifically, the focus was on approaching specific threats, reacting to the larger size of the Narada, and countering Klingon aggression with larger ships. Bigger meant better.

And that's pretty consistent across Star Trek's storytelling history. The Constitution/Starship class was bigger than most other ships. The Excelsior bigger than the Constitution, and the Galaxy class even better.

The evidence, no matter what claims of real world history, is that Starfleet is reactive.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But that's their approach. Treating it otherwise means ignoring past history. In the Kelvin Universe specifically, the focus was on approaching specific threats, reacting to the larger size of the Narada, and countering Klingon aggression with larger ships. Bigger meant better.

And that's pretty consistent across Star Trek's storytelling history. The Constitution/Starship class was bigger than most other ships. The Excelsior bigger than the Constitution, and the Galaxy class even better.

The evidence, no matter what claims of real world history, is that Starfleet is reactive.

And I'm saying that is a "Horrible Way" to run StarFleet, their Modus Operandi needs to change at the top level.

 

[fireproof78]

And I'm saying that is a "Horrible Way" to run StarFleet, their Modus Operandi needs to change at the top level.

I'm just saying that at this point we have to accept what is presented on screen.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm just saying that at this point we have to accept what is presented on screen.

Ok, the past is established, but moving foreward in time, we can change that.

We need StarFleet upper brass to not be so "Reactive" and more "Proactive".

 

[fireproof78]

Ok, the past is established, but moving foreward in time, we can change that.

We need StarFleet upper brass to not be so "Reactive" and more "Proactive".

Well, unfortunately with all the losses in recent shows that might cause the opposite reaction.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Well, unfortunately with all the losses in recent shows that might cause the opposite reaction.

Are we talking IRL shows or In-Universe StarFleet?

 

[fireproof78]

Are we talking IRL shows or In-Universe StarFleet?

I'm talking events in the shows that depict losses in universe to Starfleet.

 

[HotRod]

The difference is how we handle a situation with the training we do have, and Kirk's first instinct is to shoot at that massive of a Swarm instead of running away was a VERY bad decision.
He wasted too much time trying to fight instead of running away to fight another day.

In the world of bad tactical decisions, I don't know if anything compares to Riker losing the Enterprise-D to a beat up old Bird of Prey.

Yes, the shields were rendered useless, could he not have rotated frequencies?

Could he not have ordered am immediate retreat?

Hell, how about instead of taking the time to form some fancy plan to make the BoP engage it's cloak, all while taking hits heavy hits from it, you simply fire more than a single phaser at the damn thing. Even without shields, the Enterprise should've been able to swat that BoP like an annoying insect.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In the world of bad tactical decisions, I don't know if anything compares to Riker losing the Enterprise-D to a beat up old Bird of Prey.

Yes, the shields were rendered useless, could he not have rotated frequencies?

They did rotate frequencies, the Duras Sisters planted Malware on Geordi's VISOR.

They had direct Video Access to the Shield Frequencies that Geordi saw.

This is a "Op-Sec" issue.

Given Geordi's high rank in position as "Chief Engineer" and how his VISOR could be commandeered and used against him w/o him noticing (Given that he's naturally Blind), there should've been "Special Precautions" taken with him.

1) Have Multiple NEW VISORS, ready to go, in case of him being captured & recovered. Ergo, the Malware wouldn't have been effective.
2) Everytime Geordi gets Captured, his existing VISOR gets quarantined for technical inspection by the security / engineering staff & Geordi pulls a Brand new VISOR out of storage to be used.

Could he not have ordered am immediate retreat?

He could have, but he chose to fight and barely won thanks to his ass pull technique to lower their shields.

Hell, how about instead of taking the time to form some fancy plan to make the BoP engage it's cloak, all while taking hits heavy hits from it, you simply fire more than a single phaser at the damn thing. Even without shields, the Enterprise should've been able to swat that BoP like an annoying insect.

I concur.

Spoiler: Retro Badger Gaming - NO SHIELDS Enterprise D VS How Many Birds of Prey¿ ｜ Veridian III

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Retro Badger Gaming agrees with you and he re-created that scenario in "Strar Trek: Bridge Commander" and simulated that scenario.

The Enterprise-D, even w/o Shields could take out several OLD Bird of Prey's.

Not too many w/o Shields, but definitely more than 1x.
According to Retro Badger Gaming, the Enterprise-D can handle 4x Birds of Prey w/o Shields.
5x Birds of Prey w/o Shields is a No-Win scenario for the Enterprise-D.
With Shields, the Enterprise-D can obviously handle much more Birds of Prey.

But this assumes that that the Enterprise-D was ready for a fight, even w/o working shields.

I'm talking events in the shows that depict losses in universe to Starfleet.

Yeah, remaining "Reactive" is not a good way to operate IMO; otherwise you run into too many situations where you lose ALOT of lives needlessly on your side.

StarFleet / UFP history is rife with situations that can be corrected or prevented to some degree or lowered the damage just by changing actions / tactics / strategy.

 

[Farscape One]

The Enterprise could have destroyed the Duras sisters's ship with only a couple more phaser hits.

Instead, Riker has Worf fire once. And then that single torpedo destroyed them. Ever heard of dispersal pattern Sierra, Riker? Easy victory.

But no... we got what we got.

Between the Pegasus scandal and what he did (or rather, did not do) here, no wonder he wasn't offered another command for 8 years.

 

[fireproof78]

The Enterprise could have destroyed the Duras sisters's ship with only a couple more phaser hits.

Instead, Riker has Worf fire once. And then that single torpedo destroyed them. Ever heard of dispersal pattern Sierra, Riker? Easy victory.

But no... we got what we got.

Between the Pegasus scandal and what he did (or rather, did not do) here, no wonder he wasn't offered another command for 8 years.

Perhaps he was taking Kamen Rider's advice to retreat and regroup.


Right?

Right?




*Tongue in cheek in case it isn't obvious.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Perhaps he was taking Kamen Rider's advice to retreat and regroup.


Right?

Right?




*Tongue in cheek in case it isn't obvious.

But that's not what Riker did, he automatically sought for a "Tech-Tech" solution by looking for a vulnerability for a 1-Shot kill.

He's lucky that the Plot Armor worked in his favor.

Spoiler: ST:GEN = Enterprise-D's vs Dura's Sisters Old Klingon Bird of Prey

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[HotRod]

Gotta wonder if everytime Worf witnessed a Bird of Prey get nixed by a single Phaser or Torpedo hit throughout his time on DS9, he cursed Riker for not letting him open up on the Duras Sisters.