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How would you have written Chakotay?

I think having an authentic NA advisor and having more instances where he disagreed with Janeway in a meaningful manner (and I don't mean "Chakotay disagrees with Janeway; Janeway relieves him of command").

- Give him a tribal identity grounded in actual Native American culture. And preferably cast an actual Native American as him.

This right here is one of the biggest issues with the character. Kudos to TPTB at the time in trying to get it right but were unfortunately taken in by a fraud.

Here's the thing: None of that matters. They could have had the best NA advisor in the world, and Chakotay would still have been relegated to a background character. Because UPN and Bermaga didn't give a crap about Chakotay. They only gave a crap about Janeway, Seven of Nine, and the Doctor.

Beltran is a fine actor and until the character got relegated to the background in the later seasons did the best that he could with what he was given.

This. Chakotay was literally such a non-character by the end of the show that the only thing the writers could think to do with him was to give him a last-minute date with a woman 15 years younger than him.

Garett Wang was unhappy, too.

Wang had major professional problems from the get-go. Beltran did not. The only reason why Wang didn't get fired was because of that stupid Time Magazine sexiest stars article.
 
Here's the thing: None of that matters. They could have had the best NA advisor in the world, and Chakotay would still have been relegated to a background character. Because UPN and Bermaga didn't give a crap about Chakotay. They only gave a crap about Janeway, Seven of Nine, and the Doctor.

Which unfortunately is the truth.
They had a lot of great characters and they wasted them all just to make Seven the star and Janeway and The Doctor her sidekicks.



This. Chakotay was literally such a non-character by the end of the show that the only thing the writers could think to do with him was to give him a last-minute date with a woman 15 years younger than him.

Ah, don't be so age obsessed! :)

But there is unfortunately some truth in it too. But I'm not sure if it was to give Chakotay a last minute important role in the story. I think they did it just to show a big finger to the fans who wanted a Chakotay/Janeway romance, sort of :
"P*** off, you scumbags. This is our show and we do what we want. The only thing you should do is to shut up and worship us and what we are doing for you!

Wang had major professional problems from the get-go. Beltran did not. The only reason why Wang didn't get fired was because of that stupid Time Magazine sexiest stars article.
And Jennifer Lien who was quiet and did a good job had to go instead. :weep:
 
Lynx, did you see my post at the end of Page 1?

No, unfortunately I missed it. But now I've read it.
Thanks for the tip!


#1 The Maquis raider survives the events of "Caretaker" and flies alongside Voyager, Chakotay sacrificing his ship in the S1 finale. Season 2 follows the Maquis crew integrating into the Voyager crew, finally solidified in the "Basics" two-parter.
Yes to the plotline as such but please no Starfleet-Maquis bickering for two seasons. Possible conflicts should be solved in season one, otherwise it will turn to the bickering crap that Stargate Universe was all about.

#2 If the budget doesn't allow for Maquis's ship to stick around, put the ex-Starfleeters in uniform, but those who were never in Starfleet, keep them in civilian attire, but give them rank provisional insignia and com badges. Come Season 2, slowly transition everyone into Starfleet uniform, because Chakotay forced the issue, reminding Janeway they are now one crew. Same arc as above: two seasons for the shift from two crews to one crew. Have most of the conflict in S1. Make S2 more about the Maquis assimilating into Starfleet life and finding that difficult compared to the Maquis way.
I agree on the uniform thing, I've always thought hat the Maquis should have been turned init a "special force" on the ship with Chakotay as leader or highest in command.

As for the maquis, i think that most of the controversy would have been sorted out if they had been a special force group on the ship instead of Starfleet.

#3 Chakotay was pretty ballsy in S1-3. Keep that Chakotay around in later seasons. In S4, have Chakotay and Seven butt heads almost every episode, kind'a like Chakotay and Paris in S2.
No Chakotay and Seven drama please! It was more than enough with all tthat wimpering around Seven and her "search for humanity" as it was.

#4 Come S5 finale, keep the Equinox around. The original Captain dies. Chakotay takes command with a promotion from Lt. Comm. to full Comm. and a mix of Equinox and Voyager crew. This last for the entirety of Season 6. In the season finale, it's the Equinox destroyed by the tactical Borg cube as Chakotay and crew scramble through the wreckage to escape pods after Chakotay gives the order to abandon ship.
Could be an interesting scenario.

#5 In the final season, once they did the Seven's homelife holodeck episode, just say screw it and start doing the Seven-Chakotay relationship. Don't be like, "Nah... we're not doing that," and then have them on their 3rd date in the series finale.
As I wrote before, no Chakotay-Seven drama, thanks.

#6 In S4, have Chakotay finally confront Janeway about their feelings for each other. Janeway doesn't reject him fully, but rather, "I can't, not until I get this crew home," make it clear to the audience that if they get home while they're still young and both single, sure, but not until then. Then in the series finale, when she learns that Seven will die in the arms of her husband... Chakotay... it makes the finale that much more gut punching. She lost Seven to an away mission injury. She lost Tuvok to madness. Because she waited too long, Chakotay moved on to Seven then Chakotay went downhill emotionally over Seven's death and died of heart break just after they got back to the AQ.
No, that was not good at all. I don't want Chakotay being killed off and I want nothing of that Chakotay-Seven drama.

And the destructiv s**t episode in season 6 would never have been done, instead a decent return of Kes in season 7.


He was going to be killed off in the S4 premiere but ending up in a popular magazine over the summer lead to his character surviving miraculously thanks to the Doctor. Kes evolved into a nightbright instead in the following episode.
I would rather say that Kes was turned into a bl***y joke in that "following episode".
Not as destructive as that episode in season 6 but still devastating to the character.
 
It was the Kate show.
Chakotay was never going to get the storylines.
The producers were so obsessed about “the casual viewer” that having some crew in uniform and some in civvies was never going to fly.Keep the show as formulaic as possible seemed to be the mantra.
 
Lynx, I was proposing Starfleet / Maquis conflict, not SGU-grade infighting. More episodes like the one where they wanted the hand-held techno-thing that would allow Voyager to make giant jumps across the galaxy intil they got home. It was S1 or S2, but I forget the name of the episode. Anyway, it was Starfleet vs. Maquis way of doing things, not soap opera fighting. I wanted to see more of that, but only across the first two seasons. Once the "Basics" comes and goes, bury the hatchet, and move on to new storylines.

I'm guessing you're a fan of the Maquis raider and the Equinox lasting longer than they did? :D

What is wrong with Chakotay-Seven conflict? Conflict drives stories.

Chakotay was only killed off off screen in Admiral Janeway's mostly nice but no Chakotay / Tuvok / Seven future.

I loved the idea of "Fury," but it was just too much crammed into one eisode. It needed to be a two-parter or a come-and-go arc like the Kazon in S2 or the Hirogen in S4.
 
I don't really like religion in my Trek, so I would have made Chakotay proud of his heritage and his people's customs, but definitely realize that they were products of a more superstitious past era. I would never have written him trying to cast spells or whatever he was doing with that weird little device he had or summon spirit guides, unless it was explained "scientifically" like in the late TNG episode with the Indians and Westley and the Traveler.

I don't have a problem with Beltran not being an Indian. Few of the main actors were born where their characters were.

The whole thing with him and Seven at the end was just weird and creepy. For a little while they seemed to be sort of setting up a relationship between him a Janeway, and I would have been happy to see that blossom. It would have added great drama and character dev when Voyager got back in contact with Earth and Janeway was again able to talk to Mark. (I think that was his name.)
 
I don't really like religion in my Trek, so I would have made Chakotay proud of his heritage and his people's customs, but definitely realize that they were products of a more superstitious past era. I would never have written him trying to cast spells or whatever he was doing with that weird little device he had or summon spirit guides, unless it was explained "scientifically" like in the late TNG episode with the Indians and Westley and the Traveler.

I don't have a problem with Beltran not being an Indian. Few of the main actors were born where their characters were.

The whole thing with him and Seven at the end was just weird and creepy. For a little while they seemed to be sort of setting up a relationship between him a Janeway, and I would have been happy to see that blossom. It would have added great drama and character dev when Voyager got back in contact with Earth and Janeway was again able to talk to Mark. (I think that was his name.)
#1 Why must religion be extinct in the 24th century? It's been a thing for thousands of years, it won't go away because people went into outer space and met ET. Additionally, he never did "Indian magic." He just just had beliefs and went on "spirit quests" for guidance.

#2 Agreed.

#3 They're both adults, why is it creepy? They were setting things up between Chakotay and Seven in the holodeck episode, but they didn't decide on whether to commit until the very last episode.
 
Religion is by no means extinct. Ask any Bajoran. :) But it always seemed to me that humans prefer science over religion in Trek, though there are plenty of episodes that contradict that (Balance of Terror, for example). In reality, I totally agree that religion will always be a part of us, but Trek is a fantasy of the future that portrays lots of things that will never happen in reality.

I could be remembering Chakotay wrong. I'm not really a fan of VOY so I don't watch it that often.
 
Religion is by no means extinct. Ask any Bajoran. :) But it always seemed to me that humans prefer science over religion in Trek, though there are plenty of episodes that contradict that (Balance of Terror, for example). In reality, I totally agree that religion will always be a part of us, but Trek is a fantasy of the future that portrays lots of things that will never happen in reality.

I could be remembering Chakotay wrong. I'm not really a fan of VOY so I don't watch it that often.
When I said extinct, I meant for humans from Earth. I have no objections to a futurism where humanity focuses on scientific method, sound reasoning, logic, rational thought, hard evidence, and so on. I'm all for that. That said, I think people will still have faith and religion in the future.

We don't need a Catholic preaching in the conference room. However, seeing someone wearing a cross when changing out of their uniform or wearing a tank top, a character praying before a meal or during a medical crisis, someone just reading a religious textbook even if they do not believe in it, stuff like this would make it feel a bit more real. Note: I am not a Catholic, just an easy example.

Imagine an episode where X aliens are using religion to enslave, the captain and bridge crew study the text, and determine the enslavers are going against their religious text to enslave. The captain and crew expose what's going on, and plot, and stuff. Just make up a religion for the allegory to work.
 
Oh well. I guess we think of religion differently. :)
Changing gears: I am a Christian, but if I were to look at religion as an atheist, I would perceive religion as man's need for life to continue after death. Does that make sense? It's why I don't think it'll go away in a Star Trek like future.
 
I'm not an atheist either. Religion is never going away. But for some reason it just always clicked with me that it didn't belong in Star Trek even though the actual show swung both ways. shrugs.
 
I'm not an atheist either. Religion is never going away. But for some reason it just always clicked with me that it didn't belong in Star Trek even though the actual show swung both ways. shrugs.
Fair enough. I always liked when it did pop up, leading to one of those board room meeting episodes. :lol:
 
I would say that everybody here who said "get rid of the fraudulent consultant" nailed it.

Beltran wasn't the problem, and he was quite right in pointing out that most people of Mexican ancestry have at least some Native ancestry, and he was no exception. Likewise, most of the people of most Central and South American countries have at least some indigenous ancestry.

Chakotay was supposed to have tribal ancestry from somewhere south of the Rio Grande; Beltran's parents were both from Mexico. So Lynx was spot-on about making Chakotay Mayan, rather than inventing some "rubber tree people" out of whole cloth; Aztec or Toltec would have also worked. But whatever tribal affiliation(s) Chakotay had, the consultant(s) should have shared those affiliations: you don't hire an Italian as a cultural consultant for a Swede, so why would you, say, hire a Wampanoag consultant for a Kuupangaxwichem character?
 
I would say that everybody here who said "get rid of the fraudulent consultant" nailed it.

Beltran wasn't the problem, and he was quite right in pointing out that most people of Mexican ancestry have at least some Native ancestry, and he was no exception. Likewise, most of the people of most Central and South American countries have at least some indigenous ancestry.

Chakotay was supposed to have tribal ancestry from somewhere south of the Rio Grande; Beltran's parents were both from Mexico. So Lynx was spot-on about making Chakotay Mayan, rather than inventing some "rubber tree people" out of whole cloth; Aztec or Toltec would have also worked. But whatever tribal affiliation(s) Chakotay had, the consultant(s) should have shared those affiliations: you don't hire an Italian as a cultural consultant for a Swede, so why would you, say, hire a Wampanoag consultant for a Kuupangaxwichem character?

One old idea I had was for Chakotay to not be human at all, and that the other crew should've been a variety of aliens instead of Maquis.

Imagine Beltran as a Romulan Commander who Janeway had to have as her XO instead
 
One old idea I had was for Chakotay to not be human at all, and that the other crew should've been a variety of aliens instead of Maquis.

Imagine Beltran as a Romulan Commander who Janeway had to have as her XO instead
I think they were trying to save money. Tuvok and Kes, their makeup was mostly the ears. B'Elanna, mostly just those soft forehead ridges and bushy eyebrows. I just realized, she didn't get the scary Klingon teeth. How did I not notice until 2024? :crazy: :eek: Neelix was the only one who got heavy alien makeup, that actor is a champ. :eek: I love how he insisted on not being credited in First Contact to screw with the fans. :lol:
 
I think they were trying to save money. Tuvok and Kes, their makeup was mostly the ears. B'Elanna, mostly just those soft forehead ridges and bushy eyebrows. I just realized, she didn't get the scary Klingon teeth. How did I not notice until 2024? :crazy: :eek: Neelix was the only one who got heavy alien makeup, that actor is a champ. :eek: I love how he insisted on not being credited in First Contact to screw with the fans. :lol:

I mean, with Beltran it would've just been ears too IIRC. There's nothing saying he HAD to have that boring Romulan Hair.
 
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